brandishWikipedia:
Pronunciation: bran-dish
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English braundisshen, from Anglo-French brandiss-, stem of brandir, from brant, braund sword, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English brand
Date: 14th century
1 : to shake or wave (as a weapon) menacingly
2 : to exhibit in an ostentatious or aggressive manner
Open carry is legal in Michigan, although some people think that it is socially unacceptable without good reason (security/police officers, hunting, etc.), and choosing to do so in populated areas may result in being charged with disturbing the peace or even brandishing.
• Supporters of Barry County Sheriff Dar Leaf are taking shots at Hastings Police Chief Jerry Sarver, a candidate for sheriff in the August primary. Sarver is seen by gun lovers as being insufficiently "pro gun." Sarver is drawing fire for his alleged opposition to "open carry," the legal right to openly carry your sidearm on your person in a public place. They no doubt feel emboldened by the recent Supreme Court decision striking down a ban on handguns in Washington D.C. but mainly they feel like their support got current Sheriff Dar Leaf elected. Leaf's opponent in that election was the then-current Sheriff, Steve DeBoer, who was being attacked for sometimes denying concealed carry permits). I think Leaf's victory had more to do with former Sheriff DeBoer's drunken meeting with a mailbox while driving home from Grand Rapids and the attempted cover-up of the incident. Regardless, Leaf has long courted the extreme elements among the pro-gun crowd and counts himself among them.
• Sarver defended himself in a July 17, 2008 letter to the Hastings Banner in which Sarver relates his understanding of Michigan law concerning the open carrying of handguns and an incident in which a man was threatening to walk through a local grocery store openly displaying his firearm. The man in question backed down, perhaps deciding his Second Amendment rights could wait until election season to be exercised.
• And now that we are in the final throws of the primary campaign, Leaf's supporters have arraigned a political stunt, firing off these press releases:
http://www.usacarry.com/
In response to the Police Chief of Hastings, Chief Sarver, law-abiding citizens will be walking down Main Street in Hastings open carrying. Chief Sarver in response to a letter to the editor responded by saying it was brandishing, a misdemeanor. He failed to say that the Michigan Attorney General’s office wrote him telling him that open carry is not against the law. We are asking anyone who is interested in furthering their Second Amendment rights to join us on Thursday, July 24th at 4 PM. We will be meeting at Richie's Coffee Shop (146 W. State Street, Hastings, MI 49058).
An attorney that supports your right to keep and bear arms will be joining us.
It is important to note that this is a peaceful demonstration of our constitutional rights and everyone must be on their best behavior. All well mannered, law-abiding citizens are welcome to join us. Please RSVP if you can. Please do not dress like a paramilitary organization. Wear ordinary clothing that fits in well with the general public.
If you have any questions you can contact me at dstevens@iserv.net
David Stevens
Barry County Citizens for Second Amendment and Firearm Rights (B-SAFR)
http://www.ask4direct.com/news/wbch
CITIZENS WHO SUPPORT THE SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS WILL WALK DOWN STATE STREET IN HASTINGS THURSDAY OPENLY CARRYING A WEAPON TO PEACEFULLY DEMONSTRATE WHAT THEY SAY IS THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO OPEN CARRY. DAVID STEVENS, REPRESENTING BARRY COUNTY CITIZENS FOR SECOND AMENDMENT AND FIREARM RIGHTS, SAID LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS INTERESTED IN FURTHERING SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHTS CAN JOIN THEM AT RITCHIE'S COFFEE SHOP IN DOWNTOWN HASTINGS ON JULY 24 AT 4 P.M.
• Personally, instead of Richie's Coffee Shop at 4 p.m. I thought they'd have gone for Ponderosa at High Noon. I guess the plan is to draw a crowd, fired up with coffee and shoot on down to the Hastings City Hall so they can ceremonially display their Second Amendment rights and get out of Dodge, believing they've helped support the Sheriff's re-election bid by embarrassing Sarver. They likely think they've cornered Sarver into saying he'd arrest anyone brandishing their weapon. Either Sarver ignores the event and they get to say he backed down or he arrests anyone he believes is brandishing and they make a stink, take it to court and make political hay out of it.
• One has to wonder what a circus event clogging the city streets at the beginning of rush hour will do to win votes for Dar Leaf, who already has the support of 99.99% of gun enthusiasts who feel no restriction should infringe on their obsession with defending themselves from things that go bump in the night and fictional TV burglars. One also has to wonder what will stop people from trying to dilute the purpose of the event, perhaps even bringing along their own props and making a mockery of the event. Will people with squirt guns and toy weapons be barred from walking the streets of Hastings during this period? We've seen with the WTO protests and anti-war rallies that 100,000 people can march peacefully but it only takes one useful idiot to make the event backfire.
• There are all sorts of ways this could backfire, including revealing Leaf to be out of step with public opinion and costing him votes. One could even see this as a sign of panic in the Leaf campaign, a signal that they aren't confident they can win this on the merits and need a last ditch effort to cripple Sarver's campaign. Some might even wonder if the planners of this event are operating with a full clip or are they just shooting from the hip?
• Will Sarver's opponents shoot themselves in the foot and give him the ammunition he needs to win August 5 or will they hit their target? I guess we wait until the smoke clears...
Posts
109 comments:
Do Not Forsake Me Oh My Darlin'
Words from the theme to "High Noon". Staring Gary Cooper, and Grace Kelly.
c.1952.
The plot summary here from IMDB.com captures the plot far better than I could try to explain.
Will Kane is a town marshall. It's his wedding day and his last day as a lawman. He was about to leave town with his new bride to start a new life when some men come to town who tell him that a man he sent to prison some years ago has just been released and is arriving on the noon train. Kane and any of the townsfolk who remember him, know that he's coming to town for one thing; to get Will.
It is a far stretch to equate David Stevens with Frank Miller, the movies villian, but a gauntlet has been thrown in hopes of raising the ire of our local police chief. I Don't know whether tomorrows protest will be anything more than a tempest in a teapot.
My guess is not.
The problem with the protest is that it is aimed at the wrong person. It is (as the chief pointed out in a letter to the editor in last weeks Banner) the decision of the prosecutor as to whether or not charges of brandishing a weapon would result from openly carrying a gun in town.
To me the state law seems to be far too vague. I am sure many others feel that way also.
What does not seem so vague is that if one has an openly displayed weapon, and they pick a fight, they could very well be charged with brandishing. Which leads me to this final statement.
If someone announces that they are carrying a weapon for the purpose of evoking reaction from an officer of the law they are in fact...picking a fight.
Therefore brandishing a weapon.
Inescapable.
I am also curious as to the disposition of the owners of Ritchies coffee shop on this. Do they choose to be associated with this protest?
Anyone know?
As for counter protests, I am curious what may happen if the gun zealots were met with an overcrowded restaurant?
No room at the inn so to speak.
Most states are like Michigan - no permit needed to open carry, at least on foot. See Michigan State Police Legal Update No. 66 (June 16, 2008), available at http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._66_238184_7.pdf: "Open carry of firearms
Subject to MCL 750.234d, it is legal to carry a visible pistol in public."
Michigan has a vibrant and growing open carry movement like many other states. See http://www.mlive.com/flintjournal/index.ssf/2008/06/openly_carrying_their_guns_gro.html. There is also a weekly radio show on open carry in Michigan: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/12036.html. See also Nightline coverage of open carry at http://abcnews.go.com/search?searchtext=gun&type=.
ts: even darlin barneys deputies know who started this whole fiasco and the ccw march to the OK coral. they said darling barney has coffee and donuts just about everyday with stevens and they conjured up the idea just to attact the news media attention. a couple of deputies said they would call in sick so they don't get embarrassed by darling barneys continued unprofessionalism and inmature tactics.
you are right ts, the merchants are the ones who are going to pay for darling barneys thoughtlessness and the continued dumbing down of our county.
to bad barney doesn't take a minute to read his job description or have the prosecutor explain to him what his responsibility really are. It is to protect the taxpayer from short-sighted people just like him!!!!!!! can you imagine the likes of ow or any one of the trio plus with a loaded gun. dad and i aren't heading for hastings tomorrow, nor are any of our neighbors.
For more information on the open carry movement, go to OpenCarry.org.
If so many believe in their right to open carry then why don't we see it more? Why wait until now? Why make it a protest if it's as normal and legal as walking down the street? If it's legal then do it, you don't need a press release and an organized media circus.
Oh come on - everybody knows open carry is legal and constitutionally protected, unlike concealed carry, a privilege.
Here is the corrected link to the Nightline video: http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=5249691
Another cool video will pop up in your browser if you go to http://www.VCDL.org, scroll down
Mike, Do you in fact believe it is the right of every person in the U.S. to carry a fully automatic weapon if they wish?
Whoa nellie!
Where did open carry of automatic weapons come from? We's just talkin' 'bout normal everyday non-automatic handguns secured in modern holsters - often the same holsters used by those people concealing their handguns in your midst every day.
Now, the Michigan state legislature has decided, like all but 8 states, not to ban machine ownership, see http://www.opencarry.org/machinegun.html. Is that OK by you?
http://pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/rss/s_505409.html
I asked Stollenwerk whether he carried a gun. He said he does.
Then I asked him if he was carrying a gun because he hoped to or expected to shoot someone someday.
The phone suddenly went dead.
Yeah, that so called "reporter" was a nut, glad you found that link.
So you do advocate fully automatic weapons in the hands of citizens...right?
Sure - I am OK with the Michigan legislature and most state legislatures, and the Congress, that citizen machine gun ownership is just fine. Are you OK?
But let's get back to the open carry of the common handguns, “the quintessential
self-defense weapon.” District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. ___, ___, slip op. at 64 (2008).
Are you OK with the basic Constitutional and human right of open carrying a handgun?
Nah! I am more comfortable talking about you.
I just read a 911 transcript about something that happened at a place called Champs grill.
Care to let everyone here in on this?
You know...Just so they realize who you are.
Correction - that quintissential pin cite is Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. ___, ___, slip op. at 57 (2008).
How many years have you been doing this?
I will be there carrying my reproduction two-shot black powder derrenger (i think that's how its spelled) I found the holster and am realy to go.
If anyone has the testicles to be there to watch the march, I'd love to chat as long as you tell me your screen name...
Tell Overwhelmed whether or not in all of these years of advocating gun rights, you have ever found it necessary to discharge your firearm.
Have you ever been in a position where you have had to pull it out of it's holster, it any encounter?
Have you ever been the victim of an armed robbery?
Rape?
Intrusion on your property?
Have you shot anyone?
Do you want to?
I am sure you have never been to the city of Hastings Mi. and I am curious if you know what the last case of someone being killed by a firearm in this city is?
It was a child!
Who was playing with one of you goddamned personal protection tools.
Ah, yes, Champps 2004 - brings back the memories to what arguably was the start of the open carry movement. The Fairfax County police: they came, they saw, they left. Then I had to threaten legal action under FOIA to force the County to provide at least a transcript of the bogus 911 call that sent police to the restaurant just because some diners were open carrying.
Fast forward to 2008 - see video that opens literally at this same at Champps at VCDL.org - ahhhhhhhhhh.
See also this recent video from Pennsylvania: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVPkV1Mzpxo
You will have to excuse overwhelmed. she is a self proclaimed gun nut. Most people love family, god, or a puppy. Many things. But not an instrument that kills people every day. An instrument that is made exclusively to kill.
Every day.
Excuse me all you want but IF I had to discharge a weapon at someone who was invading my home, business, car, ect I now know how to do it.
Can the women in your life say the same???
Maybe you can come here to Hastings!
I will take you to the grave site of that child, and you can tell me how your right to bear arms could have saved him. Or how safe he must have felt knowing that a family member had held that gun to protect him from a murderer that does not exist in this community.
i am sure overwhelmed is as competent with a gun, as she is with the English language.
Did you don your gun in hopes that someone may try to stick you up?
Or is it just something you did for grins?
How much money did you nab from the city in that case?
Agnos, Thank you for the back-handed compliment. I never claimed to be well spoken or a good speller but I try to make my point.
This from someone that made (well tried to make) a living from writing.
Sweet!
I can't wait to see you try to lug a gun without spell check.
I'll leave you two to compare...barrels?
You will love Overwhelmed, Mike. She is the very person you are trying to help.
I never took a journalism class and never wanted to write. I have done many, many jobs so far in this life and journalism was not one of my favorites...
and who says I need help? I have the right to my opinion just as you do.
agnosticrat,
I'm sorry for the child ending up dead but thousands of our forefathers died to insure that we have basic human rights, one of which is to defends ones own life from wrong doers.
Nothing bad ever happened untill it happened. There's a first time for everything as I'm sure you already know.
How many children have died in Hastings from bicycle accidents from drownings from car accidents and from suicide? Perhaps your time and energy would be better spent elsewhere.
I'm sorry for the loss of a child, and offer condolences to any parent
who would endure such a tragedy. However, transferring the blame of such an event from the rightful bearers of such, too someone who had nothing to do with it is counter productive, and allows the true party responsible to escape some of the responsibility they so richly deserve.
How this topic drifted.
More children die every year from drowning accidents in swimming pools than die in a decade from "accidental" firearms discharges. Care to ban swimming pools?
Regardless, the argument is not even about the way things "should" be. The fact is that over 40 of the 50 states acknowledge the right of their citizens to keep and *bear* arms. The Michigan state legislature has seen fit to allow the open carry of firearms. They've also allowed private citizens to own "machine guns."
It seems more than a little naive or disingenuous to imply that "open carry" is all about some sheriff's election in one county in Michigan. If you're really interested in gun control issues you would be aware that open carry is growing more common every day, and is widespread all across the country.
Like Reese's Peanut Butter cups, I see this as a celebration of two great constitutional rights. I am sorry to see the fear mongering "axis of coffee" disapproves of the display of law-abiding citizens celebrating their constitutional rights. That does not make them characters out of a spaghetti Western or Dogpatch USA (as inferred on here). To infer such shows the political naiveté of the posters.
If Sarver had put more thought to his answer, maybe these folks wouldn't be at his office doorstep.
I don't think this display will cause Dar to lose votes, just the opposite, Sarver has lost votes based on his comments.
In fact, I think Sarver lost more votes with the drunken heckling of Dar displayed by Sarver's good buddy, Steve DeBoer at Dar's presentation to the local Democrats. I am glad (and I think the post office is too) that we got rid of such a public menace four years ago.
Well, I don't dispute that open carry is legal. It obviously is.
The question is how easily does open carry become brandishing under the eyes of the law. That is exactly what Sarver was warning the person about- as with almost all laws it's down to the opinion of the prosecutor (don't forget our Attorney General is just another prosecutor with an opinion of the law and certainly not the final word on how the law shall be interpreted). They backed off knowing that the law isn't exactly settled. Sarver was pointing out that as Chief of Police he is bound to enforce the laws, he explained his understanding based on what the prosecutor told him he would charge and the person backed off their threat to carry their weapon openly.
What kicked off this whole thing was a law enforcement officer stating a very easy to follow case that the difference between open carry and brandishing is vague and if a citizen feels threatened then as police chief he would have to ensure the safety of the citizens he is sworn to protect- he never said he did not support the law that makes open carry legal yet some are trying to make political hay out of a thin thread connected to a web of lies.
The point of my post isn't to talk about the assault weapons ban or gun control but it is to talk about why these people have chosen now to make a stand "defending" a law that they admit is on the books and no one questioned. They invented a boogeyman and now they're gathering a posse to go get 'im. That dog won't hunt. Everyone needs to quit inventing their straw men and debate the real topic which is why, if open carry is so obviously legal and harmless, don't we constantly see Dave Stevens and others with .45s strapped to their thighs? Why don't I see open carry in my local grocery store every single day? Why only in an election campaign?
When I noticed that 33 comments were on here, I got excited, but then I realized that they were mostly the same people.(plus a few invited guests from out of town. Michigan Militia?)
This will be a non-event, but I will buy a cold half-pint at the Bistro at 4:00pm for the contra-parade clown costume that I find to be the funniest. You will have to top my camojacket, flag-ornamented straw hat, and new jock-strap holster and water pistola.
The Hastings Banter published Dave Stevens ad as if it was a news article written anonymously. It should have been with Don Johnson's letter where it belonged. Providing free advertising for the incumbent Sheriff and the "Conservation" club should not become a tax write-off.
I noticed that Dave's letter states "... do not dress like a paramilitary organization. Wear ordinary clothing that fits in well with the general public.". How will this dress code be enforced, with weapons? Does this mean the "The Last Boy Scout" can't wear his Eagle Scout sash? Do the Sheriff and his Posse have to come dressed in undercover bib overalls? Would it be O.K. for the deputies and the out-of-town gun-nuts to arrive in their sheets-n-hoods for the evening cross-roast?
Will it be OK for me to shave off what little hair is left on my head? It would be "concealed" under my patriotic straw bonnet.
When Channel 3 shows up (at the invitation of the Sheriff and Prosecutor, again) can I get in the group photo-op for the 6pm news showing the idiocy of the Hastings residents.(I'll remove the bonnet!)
Are you wondering if the"attorney that supports your right to keep and bear arms" may be the same attorney that was on TV referring to bad management procedure as "embezzlement" without enough proof to press the charge?
So far, the survey for ditch commissioner seems to indicate that the "yard sign trio" may not be as popular as I have given them credit for. Do you suppose that the Barry County electorate is becoming literate in spite of the efforts of the local media?
The sudden arrival of gun-nuts on this blog indicates that we may get a few votes from the cemetery in August.
Bring hot-dogs and marshmallows over tonight for a weenie roast after the coals from the cross-burning are raked into a pile.
S'mores anyone?
Thank you for the wise words Jay. You made my morning!!
Nice try, Jay, but trying to be intimidating is not your strong suit.
There is nothing "politically naive" about recognizing this for what it is, a political sideshow by "
characters out of a spaghetti Western or Dogpatch USA".
You left off "red-neck".
Pol Watcher,
The reason you don't see people open carrying very often is not because of an election campaign. It is because the fine law abiding people of this great state have been lied to forever by police and others. We were told for years that it's illegal to carry a weapon to prevent crime unless you get a permission slip from the Michigan government. The same government whose job it is to help secure our freedoms. The same government that's been lying to us all this time.
Only after many years, Michigan became the "shall" issue state that it should have been all along. When this happened MANY more law abiding Michiganders wanted to make sure they were complying with the law and we started to... *gasp*...learn! We, as a huge collective group started to read, decipher and understand the laws about what we can and can't do and we share this information with all who wish to learn. This all takes time, and the time is now.
This brings us back to my first point about being lied to. After much research and fact finding we not only learned of our freedom of protection but also the restriction on the government from infringing upon them. This week loophole that Police Chief Jerry Sarver about being charged with disturbing the peace or brandishing is just another lie to push a personal agenda and is not based in law but rather his personal opinion. We have evidence of much more important persons opinions that state it is not illegal.
We are not extremists, we are law abiding fellow citizens of Michigan. We do not want to cause problems. We do not want to harm anyone. We do not want to scare children. We do not want attention. We do not want to be lied to. We do not want to be threatened.
We do want to be able to protect ourselves and our loved ones.
By the very nature of your postings it is clear that you wish to understand. You seek knowledge. I commend you. I also say that the best way to understand someone is not to argue on the internet but rather meet them, talk to them, get to know them. I personally invite you come and talk with us today. I look forward to meeting you and learning a bit from you also. I'll even buy you a coffee.
Would you like an account of a conversation with Skip? Now that is real intimidation, by a pro!
reasonandlogic,
thank you for the great post.
I'll buy you a cup of coffee too!!
And if you don't know who I am I'll be the one with the antique reproduction two-shot derringer and the copy of 'Armed and Female' in my pocket.
Today, please tell me who you are I need all the friends I can in this county, lololol
Sorry for the typo, it hould be weak, not week. I haven't had my coffee yet. ;-)
Photos will be posted on a more popular Michigan blog site.
Mourning Dove killers from Ohio and Indiana here for the parade will need a link to see their pictures.
The PARADE OF FOOLS should convince any thinking person to vote against irresponsible militaristic behavior and vote for
SARVER
4
SHERIFF!
Click on the link to Agnosticrat
Jerry,
Where can I get a yard sign!
I'd rather be a fool then dead at the hands of an intruder...
Can the women in your life say the same???
En garde!!! Let it be known far and wide that I've got a fresh supply of corks and will be there with my pop-gun and trusty Lone Ranger B-B gun!! Let the fun begin!!
el colibri,
Why not try to be constructive instead of being childish and insulting? Do you really feel you are on the "right" side of this issue with your childish attitude?
ow - dad wonders who would want to intrude at your place. they need rehab, not shot at. feed'em one of those rats and call darling barney, it's probably one of his cronies, the intruder not the rat.
Sorry, Jay, I owe you an apology. I am politically naive.
I didn't catch your meaning.
Of course, this entire political sideshow is a trick by that slippery Jerry.
He has arranged this entire charade to make our loving and compassionate Sheriff look like a right-wing extremist who has gone berserk. Those new faces on the block are really relatives in the Sarver clan, who will be threatening the citizens of Hastings by marching goose-step down the sidewalk. He probably called Channel 3 himself to arrange for the TV cameras just to embarrass Dar and Tom, and remind the voters of the last time they showed up on TV. How naive of me to not see this right away. The name "Jerry" alone should have tipped me off that something was afoot of a militaristic nature.
Oh, well! The offer of a beer for the best costume still stands, but the laugh is on me.
What TS doesn't understand is that the Republican War on Terror Award will happen after the parade. It will be awarded to the "other" Republican SARVER who will emerge as the non-violent peaceful candidate who doesn't make us afraid to visit Barry County or Hastings.
I guess I still want the yard-sign, though, anybody as clever and manipulative as this deserves to be the Sheriff.
Got me!
PW2
I have had intruders at my old house: drunk neighbors, a suicide three doors down, rogue Jehovia's witnesses, strange neighbor kids wanting to burn my house down, ect. Here in Middleville I have only had the JW's and other solicitors so far but then again we've only been here a year.
I am not paranoid like TS, I truely did and sometimes I think I still do have enemies in this county...just read the past bloggs and see!!!
Yeah, but have you ever had a genuine terrorist cross burned in your front yard? Huh?
Colibri,
Stop being so childish and start agreeing with everything said by reasonandlogic. After all, it must all be reasonable and logical.
Playing Lone Ranger is reasonable and logical for grownups.
Marching up and down the street threatening the citizenry by being armed to the teeth, is being extremely...reasonable.
You don't seem to understand that if some judge decides that something doesn't violate a law then we should all do it all the time. Like sucking your thumb, or picking your nose, for example.
What could be more reasonable than advising the entire population of the most violent society in the world to carry guns to the store?
You never know when some lunatic will jump out from behind the candy bar display and grab your Pampers and run off without you even getting off a shot. You need to get trained in much quicker draw/exhale-point/squeeze-close eyes/exhale. There, one less Pamper-snatcher to fear.
Grow up! Act like an adult! Squeeze off a few rounds to let the world know who is boss!
OverWhelmed said...
"I'd rather be a fool then dead at the hands of an intruder..."
I warned you!
Now you know what happens when you make a wish and kiss a rat.
Mike von Stollenwerk
Reasonandlogic
Ghost Rider
Bobber Net
Try to keep up, guys. Things move pretty fast here in Michigan
You can use the computers in the new Library. (Same as Lah-Berry, where you'uns come from).
El Grillo:
Not everyone has nothing to do all day and I'm sure absolutely no one is anxiously sitting by the computer waiting for your responses. Give it a rest with your Wild-Wild West Analogies. If you look at the numbers, The Old West was Much, Much more lawful than modern day. Either way thats not what we're looking for and we're not advocating that everyone wear a firearm. We are, however, advocating that the people who choose to be responsible for their own safety and not rely on the late-responding police force to protect them; we are advocating that those people should be allowed to do so. We're not putting guns in hands that don't already have them, and we're not putting gun in the hands that are untrained. Every member of our cause is suggested very seriously to be trained on safety and the laws in their state in regards to firearms and their carry. We EDUCATE daily.
The stone cold fact is that People on a daily basis use a firearm to fend off a violent attack, more times than a firearm is used in the commission of a crime. 2.5 million times a year people use guns to keep them safely, WELL over 90% of the time the gun is not even fired! We don't want to hurt people, but more than that, we don't want people to hurt us. We are one of the most law abiding demographics in society, so why not simply allow us to abide by the law? If you disagree with it, thats fine, we'd love to have the debate. We do it everyday, and it's part of the reason people open carry their handguns; it starts conversations on firearms. Again, WE EDUCATE. So lets have a debate if you disagree, but lets be mature about it. You statements about us being childish is quite null and void with the way you handle yourself.
You're welcome to your assumptions but your wrong. I have no aspiration to be an officer.
You're also welcome to your name calling. I am a Proud 'Barrel Hugger.' I am proud of this because of what it represents, among many, many other reasons. I am also willing to be that in a not-so-specific situation that you'd be a Nut-Hugger to the Barrel-Hugger. See, I can do it too.
Anyhow, getting past the frivolousness, People strike up conversations about someone carrying their firearm openly for many, many reasons. Many people just like to talk about it. Some people like to think they can berate the OC'er for doing so. Either way, it brings the topic up and exposes people to the truth about firearms. I dare you to educate yourself and still feel the way you do. I dare you.
Also, Paranoia is not a common symptom among any of the gun owners that I know. What you might see as paranoia is simply being prepared. Maybe you see anything other than blatantly ignoring the possibility of someone attacking you as paranoia. I would actually argue that is it YOU that is in fact paranoid; paranoid of the responsible gun-owning American as having the propensity for violence. If you look at the facts, you can't be anything other than wrong on that point, if indeed that is your point.
Lets also look at this from the standpoint of rights. My opinion bar's no one of any of their rights. Your opinion bars EVERYONE of theirs.
Three trueisms you gun lovers should hang on your wall:
#1. 'The truth is mightier than the swoard'.
#2. 'The truth will set you free.'
#3. 'Those that live by the sword die by the sword.'
It won't be long before the Supreme Court of the United States will be rebalanced and common sense restored to our gun control laws..... enjoy your paranoia while you can!!!
TS: Please tell me you're joking about the Supreme Court. If you aren't, you've shown just how ignorant you are on the subject. Do me a quick favor and google Supreme Court and Guns together and see what comes up.
I still don't understand how you lefties can think that 2A means anything other than what it says. "...The right of the PEOPLE to keep and BEAR arms shall not be infringed." How can that mean anything other than people have the right to own guns and wear them? If you want to talk about the Militia, the people ARE the Militia. You, me, Joe-blow down the street. We are the Militia.
Thanks for granting me permission to have all the guns I want, Seeing as you're the Authority on firearms, but I suspect that you might actually endorse legislation and/or legislators who would keep me from doing so. Actions and words.
See, the fact is that we DO have the right to walk down the street with a 9mm strapped to our sides. If you don't like it, thats fine. Thats your right as a free man. You can like and dislike things all you want, and you can even post a blog about it without fear of repercussions from your Government. As much as I disagree with what you say, I will defend your right to say it however you like. You can burn as many American flags as you please, thats fine, thats your right. I don't agree with it but I'm not going to call the police asking you to be arrested. So why do you insist on infringing on my rights to express how I feel simply because you don't agree with it? I'm not infringing on anyone's right by doing so. No one is being denied their life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness.
Merely us carrying a weapon does no injustice to you. If you're sensitive to the sight of a firearm, thats no fault of ours. It's actually a fairly natural response to the person ill-educated when it comes to guns; once one is educated they lose the fear and gain a respect. We will leave you alone, I promise you, as long as you're leaving us be. That is WHY we OC; Because we want anyone that would do us harm to leave us be. Strike up a conversation and most will return it in kind.
Go ahead and paint your picture of the obese, ill-educated gun-owner. I think if you actually committed any time to any research, you'll find that you're quite wrong in this assumption and that it only further displays how truly ignorant you are to something you vehemently oppose. You might actually realize that we, as gun owners, advocate absolutely nothing but education, safety and protecting yourself.
Colbri:
1# The truth can be mightier than the sword, so long as the one with the sword cares about the truth.
2# The truth will not set you free from an untruthful person carrying a sword.
3# You're absolutely right so long as you realize that Gun-owners don't live by their 'Swords.' Their sword is only used against those truly do live by their sword: Criminals who use force to gain what they want in an illegal manor.
I challenge any of the Anti-gunners to actually debate me instead of invoking emotional and sarcastic comments to make their points. Somehow I doubt this will happen.
Flip,
That would be a "well regulated" militia. Which really is the problem isn't it? You see, as the words were written together you would think you could quote them together.
If you are the militia, the constitution demands that you must be well regulated.
What you conservatives don't get is that you cannot pick and choose phrases that help your cause, and ignore the ones that don't.
Also, how much do you weigh?
Well, where were you? There were three bartenders, a waiter, a cook, and me. I was the only one in costume (unless you count aprons).
Of course, as Flip noted, the only people who could show up for a 4:00PM Thursday parade were people like me who don't have regular jobs. The good news is that seeing a dozen people waddle down the street wearing tiny guns wouldn't send a huge mob into a panic. Those of us who grew up with guns got the giggles.
I set up for a huge solo resistance movement, dodging the media trucks on my bike, and found the biggest crowd to be the gawkers like myself in front of Second-Hand Corners and embarrassed shopkeepers standing in front of their empty stores, contemplating the disastrous effect on future visitors and potential lost sales.
Skip dominated the front entry of Friskies, promoting his book, and finally allowed the media to swarm into the smoke-filled interior.
To preserve the charade of this not being political and being fully in the best interest of all the people on the globe, the Sheriff was absent.
Finally, what few people had shown up straggled out of the smoke and spread out along the sidewalk. After walking two blocks east and back, most of these sportsmen and women were happy to sit around the fountain and listen to another speech by Skip.
Talk about a non-issue!
No matching T-shirts. No noise-makers. No music. No signs. Mostly just a single voice saying blah-blah-blah-blah.
I don't know who got the award for being the most annoying. I got bored and left.
Had a nice chat with OW. Talked to a lawyer, but it wasn't the designated mouthpiece.
Placed an order for a Sarver yard sign.
Tomorrow is "Friday at the Fountain". It should be much more interesting.
The full report will be on Page 18 of the Banter, next week, with some other stuff.
I can hardly wait for the whack jobs to leave town so we can get back to good-humored repetitious name-calling.
I never thought I would say that.
Have you heard the one about....
911
Agnosticrat:
Funny, I really didn't look at you handle until now. Lets just say it makes many things rather obvious when you couple it with your opinions.
Alrighty then, why don't you go ahead and quote the whole 2A. Tell you what, I'll do it for you, seeing as you've chided me for not doing so then not doing so your self. "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." You point of being well regulated does not negate my point. Regulation can many things, and I suggest you read Justice Scalia's opinion on the subject. Thats Heller vs D.C. for those who do not know. What you Liberals don't understand is that what you accuse us of is EXACTLY what you do yourselves! You're staunch defenders of the 1st but throw the second to the wind! Also, don't confuse conservatism with Republicanism. They're not too closely aligned anymore.
I'm not sure why you'd care but I weigh 210ish and I'm 6'4".
TS:
My concern is not simply protecting my home and material things, my concern is protecting myself and the ones that I love. I have no obsession beyond that.
I do believe in law enforcement, I know many of them and for the most part think they do a fantastic job. However, its simply not possible for an Officer to be every where at once. When/if someone breaks into my home at night, they're not going to be able to respond within seconds. There's a favorite saying among us 'Gun Nuts': "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away." Whether you like it or not, that is the stone cold fact.
Honestly, if you harbor that much fear from your neighbor I would suggest that you are the paranoid one. As I have stated previously, those who carry weapons legally are one of the MOST law abiding demographics in the nation. We're less likely to commit serious crimes than police officers!
You can see how I feel about 2a above. Its is sad that such a lengthy opinion has to be written to explain what is so plainly written.
Attention is not the first reason to carry a firearm and I don't know a single open carrier that does for only for that reason. Self defense is the primary reason. Open carry holds some benefits that concealed carry does not. One of those is reaching out to people.
You may feel that the police are sufficient protection for your well being. I don't feel that it's enough for me. Again you advocate stripping my of my rights, while I advocate lifting yours up.
I see maturity has not elevated beyond petty name calling.
However, "[l]ike most rights, the Second Amendment is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose." The Court's opinion, although refraining to undertake an exhaustive analysis of the full scope of the right, "should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms."
“Mike von Stollenwerk
Reasonandlogic
Ghost Rider
Bobber Net
Try to keep up, guys. Things move pretty fast here in Michigan”
ROFLOL.
That’s the best post by you yet. Just can’t stand it when you don’t get the attention , can you. I know it’s bad form to argue with people on the net, but this material is just too good.
El grillo,
Was that you on the bicycle with the camoflage, and the “make love not war” t-shirt?
thanks agnosticrat, el grillo, ts, flip, el colibri and ow. dad said that anyone who is as far right as david duke or the trio plus and who blindly endorses and supports the likes of darling barney, ISN'T what this peacefully community needs.
it is obvious that darling barney, stevens and flippy appear to be self-centered, media hungrey goofs that are making the people of our county look like a bunch of far right wacko's.
it kinda shows you darling barney talks out of both sides of his mouth. he was part of the parade organization committee according to many, but doesn't have the guts to follow it through. barney is a pro at throwing negatives against the wall and stands back to see if it sticks. his no show at the barney boys parade is clear, he turned and ran when accountibility and responsibility becomes involved. barney now denies any involvement with the cowboys when he realized the news media saw threw him or there was no "jury appeal". hummmmmmmm sound familiar, could it be a barney habit of denial.
chief sarvars never went down to the trio plus or david duke level by being sucked into the darling barneys cowboys parade. sarvars accountibility, leadership, integrity, and vast education IS exactly what our wonderful county needs and it really showed by all of your accounts.
thanks, we hope the people of our county vote for the candidate who has accountibility, integrity and positive leadership, and not for the one who is engulfed in trickery, negative propaganda and smoke and mirrors. the "proof IS in the pudding" barney
Agnosticrat:
Good quote. Now what Does Scalia say about the wording in 2A? Does he say its a Militia/collective right or does he say its an individual right?
How About this, Seeker. I'll make you a promise. If you can tell me every time in my life that I will be attacked with any certainty, I'll carry only on those days. Otherwise, I will continue to be armed and prepared, because I do not have any psychic ability nor do I believe anyone else to posses it.
You fellas act like this is something that happens specifically in Michigan. 44 states allow open carry and it happens in all 44. Soon to be 45 if I have anything to say about it. People OC all day everyday and for the most part get very positive feedback from the populous.
Call me self-centered, you're probably right. I am centered in my self defense. Media hungry not so much, but say what you like. I also don't understand why some of you act like its a danger to you yet some of you showed up. Why would you intentionally put yourself in danger?
What a horrendous display. Simply the worst publicity for Hastings.
Even channel 3 is calling this a political stunt.
People are outraged. I have heard chatter that Dar has enraged a large group of his supporters.
Donn't dress in paramilitary attire: LIKE THE DEPUTIES DO!
Let's all hope that the residents of Barry County are smart enough to get rid of DAR while they have the opportunity. Otherwise they might GERONIMO him.
Karma Baby. Karma.
flipper - why didn't darling barney show up, was he scared that the tide had turned on his non-sense or there won't be any jury or media appeal or couldn't he find his high heeled swat boots. we've been told he was one of the look alike david duke stupid parade organizers with you and stevens. he can't or won't stand tall for you wacko's, why are you waisting your time defending him and making our county look off the wall and so far david dukish right.
I for one person had a good time, learned alot and enjoyed many great conversations.
Cricket, had a great coversation w/you but then again we always have had interesting conversations...worms, Costa Rica, rats, ect ect and BTW I kiss my rats all the time, guess I never know when one will turn into a prince LOLOL
There is no question but what our school children are in dire danger of a Columbine style attack.... it could happen at any time. If our community really cared about the safety and health of it's children they'd demand that courses in firearms be taught beginning in kindergarten. Along about second grade when they can read the 2nd amendment for themselves they should be provided with a sidearm. Imagine how much safer our kids would be then than they are now. What a blessing this would be.
'think of the children' and teach them to defend themselves...
There was a little kid in the vast crowd of 40 marchers and rollers (actually about a dozen with weapons, including those that were non-functional). She was wearing a "Student of the Month" T-shirt and learning behavior from adults that she would consider to be role models. How sad, to teach children violent conflict resolutions to non-existent fears. There are so many better alternatives.
The article in the Detroit Free Press was not restricted to a sound-bite, like on the tittilating TV accounts that are just for promoting the commercials. It is worth reading, since I watched the reporter circulating diligently around trying to get more than one blah-blah-blah opinion of an inflammatory nature.
I cracked up when the photo inside showed Mark Englerth in a booth. He must have sneaked out the back door under cover of the smoke screen, since he was not out on the street with the whack-jobs when noses were being counted. He probably had to rush home to get his pistola and didn't get back in time for the grand Parade of Fools.
Have to send an e-mail to Chris Christoff (DFP), who did an excellent report, even including quotes by Sarver who the invited TV stations said was "unavailable for comment" which is just another excuse for doing a sloppy job of reporting and not doing your homework.
Cracked up over the description of the "red-meat" speech by the principal speaker and "self-styled publisher" from Holland.
Seeker:
Should we just teach our kids to lay down and die when danger knocks on their door? That, in my opinion, would be the sad advice. Giving guns to children is not what we advocate, BTW. Again more sarcastic gibberish with no basis in fact.
Also if you have the link to the supposed school shooting, I'd like to have it. Just for informations sake, it would be highly unlikely that he had a permit to carry a weapon at all or even was legally allowed to have the gun. An overwhelming number of times a crime is committed, it is done so with a firearm obtained illegally.
PWII:
I don't know where he was and it doesn't matter.
Wow! Yesterday was a great day for the open carry movement all across America, and not just in Michigan:
Texas: http://www.kvue.com/news/top/stories/072408kvueopencarry-sb.8aaac2f3.html
Michigan:
Detroit Free Press: "Gun owners show their metal in Hastings
About 40 stroll for 2nd Amendment" - http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008807250352
http://www.wwmt.com/news/hastings_1351572___article.html/guns_banded.html
Video: http://www.wwmt.com/video/index.php?bcpid=1111405973&bclid=1137706675&bctid=1688292702 & http://www.wwmt.com
Channel 8: http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=8733074
MSNBC: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25841132
National: Showdown over packing heat in national parks at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25630796:
SNIP
'Open Carry' Backers Would Go Further
For that reason, some gun-rights activists would like to go even farther than the current proposal. Members of the “open carry” movement believe it should be changed to allow citizens to carry unconcealed guns in parks, a right they say is constitutionally protected. Calling the current proposal a “cruel hoax,” Mike Stollenwerk, a co-founder of OpenCarry.org, said, “You almost have to be a freaking international attorney to figure it out.”
And a few days earlier in Idaho:
http://www.idahostatesman.com/102/story/447064.html
http://www.2news.tv/news/25651079.html
el grillo - just read the article in the detroit free press about the parade of fools and the red meat, david duke speech.
after reading the DFP, the trio plus of callton, engleth, ferris, evans, debbie smith, darling barney leaf, the detroit city council and their mayor kwame kilpatrick. it appears they all have many things in common - blame, denial, misinform, the speading of negative propaganda and not taking RESPONSIBILITY for their actions and pessimistic behavior
Thats funny PWII, because whats exactly what we say about you Lefties!
Great article, as promoted by what's-his-name, above:
"Detroit Free Press: "Gun owners show their metal in Hastings
About 40 stroll for 2nd Amendment" - http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008807250352
That's all we need. A bunch of whack-jobs wandering all over the national parks killing roaring wild chipmunks, and protecting their children from savage butterfies. My son has his hands full now protecting innocent civilians from poaching whack-jobs trying to kill wildlife with high-powered rifles, so they can replace their missing manhood with heads cut from grazing mammals.
Can somebody explain why I should be less afraid of a whack-job wearing his substitute manhood outside of his coat as opposed to hiding it under his coat? I seems to me that any whack-job can carry his substitute manhood on display without even bothering to qualify as mentally-stabilized. Only the more secretive whack-jobs have to get a CCW permit.
As a matter of fact, shouldn't a whack-job wearing his pisstola on the outside of his pants be arrested for "indecent exposure"?
More name calling, sarcasm and hyperbole. I challenge any of you lefties to actually bring me some real numbers on the gun issue that support your cause. Of course you won't, because you can't, because the numbers don't support your cause. The only thing that does support the way you feel is emotion, sarcasm and childish name calling.
Try some reason and logic.
flip,
I tried some of the "reasonandlogic" stuff and it tasted like pasture droppings.
If you could be a little more specific about what gun violence statistics you haven't been able to find, I will be happy to cut-n-paste them for you.
In the first place, there isn't a gun "issue" other than the trumped up nonsense that I was taught at OCS about what you are wearing being a "piece" and not a "gun".
I don't question your legal right to carry your weapons of domestic destruction in public places, your legal right to be a whack-job, your legal right to scratch your privates, your legal right to pick your nose, or your legal right to suck your thumb. I just happen to believe that anybody who has those kinds of needs should seek professional therapy.
I will submit that there is an entire encyclopedia of misinformation provided by whack-jobs, but for proven facts you will need to broaden your base of knowledge. Firearms are dangerous.
One thing we agree on. My fear of whack-jobs is my own personal and private fear and has nothing to do with you personally. I've never been bitten by a poisonous snake, but I don't go barefoot in the jungle. It's an irrational fear that I share with quite a few other folks. Mostly liberals.
I meant "lefties"...
...and people who actually go out into the jungle, not just waddling around town in their rubber boots.
I apologize for over-using "whack-jobs". I meant to say "an insignificantly small group of lunatic fringe people". How childish of me.
My 14 year old daughter and 11 year old son know how to defend themselves from a multitude of threats including sexual, verbal, weapons-based and intruders. I would be lacking in the parenting department to not teach them to defend themselves.
We (hubby and I) are not whack-jobs, we are responsible parents trying to do their best in a crazy world.
I feel for the people killed in Colimbine and at that latest school, but what would have happened if the victims knew how to defend themselves and were allowed to carry a weapon in the open or concealed?? Maybe a few less victims killed? maybe the criminals stopped at the door? No one knows...
None of my six children or my twelve grandchildren have ever been nor will ever be taught to use a firearm against another human being to resolve a personal conflict.
When your children show up with their loaded weapons, my children and grandchildren will hand them whatever cash they have and will turn around and walk away as fast and quietly as possible.
If your kids want the TV set they can have it. We'll throw in some non-violent video tapes.
The parents of the Columbine killers were whack-jobs.
The new Sarver sign is on display in the front yard.
gracias, amiga!
Sarver was incorrect in his "brandishing" remark. The correct charge for wearing ones substitute manhood on the outside of one's pants is "indecent exposure". How do I make the correction to Wikipedia?
I think the out-of-town invited guests have left.
They couldn't keep up with the fast pace of our fine City.
Back to living off the land and shooting chickens, doves, toads,and snails and blowing up turtles.
Well, I'm reaming out the barrel of my super duper bean shooter and resighting my sling shot..... after what just happened in that church in Tennessee you never know. Gotta be ready for 'em.
The right of the people to commit suicide with bombs cannot be infringed, under the penalty of death.
The news that 300 people were wounded and 57 killed, last night in Iraq, will probably not be mentioned on the evening news. No American occupational troops were hurt. Only women and children and a few men were inconvenienced.
As the rapidly aging McCane will insist, the "surge" is working.
When I was a kid a "Surge" was a milking machine. Seems like nothing has changed.
Hey coffee shop boys:
Is it true that if Sarver gets elected that he'll make local drunk, former sheriff and mailbox-smasher champ Steve DeBoer the Undersheriff?
If true, I am voting for Dar.
All you need to know about the best choice for Sheriff is that Dar is supported by Skip Coryell (from "Hamilton")
If Sarver gets drunk and smashes my mailbox, it will still be better than arming a bunch of whack-job vigilantes to threaten everybody in my city.
jay,
how sad it is that you would bring up something that is 4 -5 years old, where there was nothing proved about anything other than what the past sheriff stated.
He said he hit some mailboxes and that is true, nothing at all proves or even suggests he was drunk.
Had he had something to drink, yes, it is legal to do so in Michigan, I did it last night, went out for dinner had a glass of wine and drove home. BTW on my way home a doe and fawn ran out in front of me. I swerved which is the natual reaction, I did not hit the deer, and I had the good luck of not having a mailbox on the side of the road.
If I had hit a mailbox and called the police, they would have made out a report, just like the one that was made out for then Sheriff Deboer, on the report would have been a box that would have to had been checked either , Had been Drinking, or Had Not been Drinking.
It would have had to been checked Had Been Drinking, as I had one glass of nice merlot with dinner.
Thus the same thing that happened to Sheriff DeBoer.
The difference, I was not running for office, I did not have an opponent who had sued me three times and lost, who has sold his soul to the gun huggers.
So who were we better with, this is a no brainer..... We had a real sheriff in DeBoer, we now have at best a clone of "Barney Fife".
I read with great interest in the local rag this morning that he is endorsed by the Right to Life, ask him what he think of the death penalty? Apparently he is not as right to life as he would have you believe.
More importantly, Jay, you have stated that the former sheriff is a drunk, could you provide some proof of that? Do you have a picture, and/or breath test, something other than your own "what I want it to be information" ?
One last comment as we are living in the past apparently, "barney" last time around made a large issue about then Sherif DeBoer, having received the endorsements of other sheriffs, as I recall his comment at a forum, "I think it is wrong for a sheirff to endorse another sheriff."
Check out the GR Press, there is "barney's" name on the list of sheriff's supporting the current one in Kent Co. I have noted that on "barny's" list of supporters no sheriff name has appeared.
It makes one wonder why, or maybe it is the same reason he is shunned at the state sheriffs meetings, I first heard him called " barney" there.... I would like to take credit for it, but can not.
Ask him what positons he holds at the state sheriff's assoc. ask him what position he hold with any LE group?
As him about his new $300,000.00 recs. management purchase that can not interface with anyone else in the county.... yes, "barney" is the right name, just wish I would have thought of it first.
The dumbing down of Barry Co. will be complete if he is reelected, and the jokes will be about us for having done so.
TS
TS--
Your non-denial denial of my question only tells me that there is truth to the rumors that DeBoer will be undersheriff.
If you saw DeBoer at Dar's presentation to the Dems, as I did, there is no denying this man is a drunk. He even exclaimed that he was as he exited the building. I believe the Dems have the presentation on tape.
I used to see Steve as a smart, competent person, he has descended into a caricature of his former self.
As with the "endorsement" deal. I think Dar is being consistent. He doesn't list another sheriff on his list because he took that stand. Dar has made endorsements of other candidates, no question about that. With the current controversy over endorsements in the Kent Co. race, I am not sure if Dar did make the endorsement. I know I've been in some campaigns where so and so has given money, shook my candidate's hand saying they were in support of them, had our sign in their yard, then retracted their endorsement after it was published. Regardless if Dar did, it would show that he IS getting along with the neighboring LE community.
I have a feeling it would be as huge pay cut, I did not respond because it is such a far fetched idea on your part.
Again, I have told you what they think of "barney" anyone who is around him for any time at all will see is lacking in ability to conduct a normal conversation or business.
Have him tell you about the time he shot the pheasant in the cell phone tower.
He may also lack judgment.
TS
I have ordered a DAR/deboer sign for my front yard.
You are invited to sit on the front porch during the next Thunderstorm Warning with me and see the massive bolt of lightning rush from the sky turning the sign wires to molten shrapnel and sending melted plastic confetti in every direction.
We will toast the evening away with chilled merlot, waiting excitedly for the WBCH announcement of Hell freezing over.
RSVP
Oh, I heard that Obama is a Muslim. Pass it along to your most gullible friends, along with this invitation or you will suffer dire consequences.(Nothing could be more dire than having gullible friends!)
El Grillo
What number am I? 39? Been reading this board almost since its inception.
Long time lurker first time poster. Here anyway.
TS
It took me years to figure out who you are IRL. I hope next week you stay right where you are.
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