Thursday, April 23, 2009

Hoekstra knew of torture...Admits it!












"It was not necessary to release details of the enhanced interrogation techniques, because members of Congress from both parties have been fully aware of them since the program began in 2002."


If it is true as Congressman Hoekstra admits in his editorial yesterday in the Wall Street Journal that he knew about, and even condoned torture in his position as ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee, we as his constituents should call for his immediate resignation.

in his own words:
"Members of Congress calling for an investigation of the enhanced interrogation program should remember that such an investigation can't be a selective review of information, or solely focus on the lawyers who wrote the memos, or the low-level employees who carried out this program.".

In his editorial he uses the same "everybody was doing it" excuse that my own parents would not accept from me as a child, and an end justifies the means excuse that reminds me of Nixonian days. What others knew, and when they knew it is a matter for investigators, and constituents of other congressional districts. But we cannot sit idly by when our own representative admits to allowing our nation to commit illegal actions.

41 comments:

el grillo said...

You obviously have a one-sided opinion of the "agressive interrogation techniques" that have become a needed part of our foreign policy to bring peace and harmony to our planet. Referring to water-boarding as "torture" gives away your bent toward liberalism.

According to our heroes, Dink Cheney and Rash Limbo, who now speak for the new Republican Party leadership and tel-evangelists everywhere, these techniques have saved us from an invasion of old ladies with shoe-bombs, and who-knows-what-all. I personally have noticed that my street has not been invaded by herds of elephants, since interrogations have become more aggressive. How much more proof do you need?

On my return trip, having lost 20# of ugly fat, I did not mind having to remove my shoes, pocket change, ballpoint pen, etc. but showing the lady my passport laden with declarations of innocence while supporting my unbelted pants made me appreciate the work of Homeland Security to keep elephants from immigrating illegally. Who knows what might be hidden in a large-sized toothpaste tube?

Of course,everything must be done for a reason, so instilling fear of foreigners must provide a benefit to somebody. I'm sure that Dink Cheney hasn't benefitted from Halliburton's involvement and conservative listeners don't increase their fear-mongering adherence to their source of the truth, so it must benefit the rest of us in some way to pull out toenails and electrify testicles.

dmarks said...

So, as Nancy Pelosi also knew about and condoned it, do you call for her resignation as well?

agnosticrat said...

She does not represent my state.
But what is more she has not admitted that she knew. At least not in a newspaper of record. If in fact she does, or in the course of investigation we find that she did..I will.

el grillo said...

Having lost the moral high ground we are left with nothing but moral indignation.

agnosticrat said...

Let me be more clear.
All those that knew, and condoned the torture should resign, or be thrown from office.

Pol Watcher said...

And DMarks resorts to the time-tested GOP line "the Dems did it too!"

Hoesktra is probably lying when he tries to throw Pelosi under the bus anyway. Remember this whopper?

"...weapons have been discovered, more weapons exist... Iraq was not a WMD-free zone... there are continuing threats from the materials that are or may still be in Iraq," said Rep. Pete Hoekstra, R-Mich., chairman of the House Intelligence Committee.

dmarks said...

Pol: It has nothing to do with the GOP, or even the "Dems do it too". I was just asking the person who wants Hoekstra out for covering up torture to walt everyone in Congress out who did the same thing. This applies to any others, Dems or Republicans.

The "GOP line" aspect is all in your imagination.

As for your "whopper", you failed to come up with one. Hoekstra's statement was entirely true (hundreds of chemical WMD wearheads were found after the invasion), and is a matter of history. If you want to make a better case against Hoekstra, don't bash him for telling the truth.

dmarks said...

And thanks, Agnosticrat, for a good consistent position, that avoids Pol's "it is OK when Dems do it" implication.

agnosticrat said...

Actually Pol was dead on. The same talking point has been used by many GOP shills on television, in print, and on the internet. You are being intellectually dishonest when you merely repeat it.
Instead you could be saying, "Yes Pete Hoekstra should be held accountable, as anyone else that signed off on torture, I want a full investigation." Instead you accused Nancy Pelosi of something that she has already denied in order to set a different standard, and showing your contempt for the rule of law.

dmarks said...

I am being honest when I tell you that I am not repeating anything. I did, however, read about Pelosi on CNN. That is where I got the idea. It almost looks like you are using a diversionary tactic to avoid discussing the actual ideas, and instead get into some pointless thing about what others may or may not have said it.

I am not setting a different standard. That Pelosi lied by denying what she did makes her worse than otherwise.

At this point, a full investigation is warranted. Open all of the files, including what was passed around at Congress.

Or maybe we should just ignore everything you said as "Talking points" because some Democrat elsewhere said it. Oh wait. Can't forget the meaningless insult "Democrat Shills". Have to add Shills.

el grillo said...

Calling for resignations is fine for media reaction, but the rest of us merely replace the foul smell with the voting machine in due time. Democrats should not be deluded into thinking that we Republicans who have been betrayed by our party have suddenly swarmed across the gym floor and become part of the other team. Those of us who support free enterprise capitalism without resorting to violence and fraudulent favoritism will shift back in a few years when our party is no longer represented by shock-jocks and war-mongering televangelists. The KKK and Sunday morning gunslingers will not hold the reins of power nationwide in spite of symptoms in the backyards of Barry County.

While conservatives in Barry County may fail to evolve, the rest of the world will not stop its forward motion, and the distance between what was and what will be will continue to increase.

Great progress is being made in the developing world while we whimper about losing our "God-given right" to be on the leading edge.

I recommend that you read about social businesses in Bangladesh, and spare me the BS about how the USA has made progress possible with generous gifts of international aid. Our record in that area is an embarrassment.

agnosticrat said...

Grillo, to be honest I am surprised you have ever been a member of any team.
I am sure the day the Republican party starts replacing the word free, with the word fair,(and mean it) they may very well have a shot at running the country from inside the Whitehouse once again. Till then, you may have to dance with the one that brung ya!

el grillo said...

Couldn't agree more, and you are right on when it comes to wearing uniforms and being a thoughtless follower of dogma.

The problem began when I was old enough to ride my bicycle to the library. I have the annoying habit of reading for myself and not waiting for other "team members" to interpret for me. In the old days, we called it "doing your homework".

My next research project when I return from Minnesota will be to look up the attendance data for Charlton Park other than the 2006 comparison that the Banner blindly published. I suspect that attendance was pretty good before 2000 and 2006 could have been surpassed by some blind monkeys.

The folks out here on the plains seem to think that torture is not an important issue, since they are sure that Obama is "pro-abortion" and the government is about to take over every aspect of our lives due to the dominance of us radical left-wing socialists.

Love to dance! Prefer cumbia to merengue and bachata. Prefer Sarah whats-her-name to Pelosi, but only for dancing.

dmarks said...

Why would people thank that Obama is pro-abortion? Because he is proudly pro-abortion, and even defended this position in his Notre Dame speech.

As for replacing "Free" with "Fair", they mean the same thing as long as the people (not the state) decide what is fair. Free trade, for example, is the most fair, as those trading get to choose.

el grillo said...

Fair Trade and Free Trade are not even remotely related.

Fair Trade is an effort to offer farm products to the world without dealing with brokers that are no longer relevant.

Free Trade is an effort to retain trade within the clutches of corporate brokers (such as the Bush-dominated United Fruit Company) who can only survive by having laws passed to protect their obsolete presence.

CAFTA, in particular, abuses small businesses in most countries in Central America, and NAFTA has a huge database of failures and abuses in the countries who were coerced to sign up for it.

The Free Enterprise system is based on a philosophy of allowing obsolete and dysfunctional enterprises to fail and dissolve, allowing the talented workers and creative entrepreneurs to be re-absorbed into a more valuable economic system.

The reaction by my former Republican party leadership, to supply public tax money to artificially support fraudulent money-lenders and unimaginative car builders, is the most abusive of all socialist practices by those who have attempted to paint over their embezzlement of public funds with a thick coating of foul-smelling capitalistic jingoisms that the ignorant are all too willing to babble endlessly and repetitively in lockstep. This new "Bail-Out Economics" transfers wealth to the non-productive, which is not Capitalism from any perspective.

The blame for the damage done will obviously be referred to by the typical AM radio listener as the Obama economics that sucked the life-blood from a "fundamentally strong" world economy.

I would be happy to listen carefully to a televangelist who had even the slightest clue about how to bring the world back to a reasonable economic condition more quickly than the current efforts can accomplish. For now, the hate-mongering racism is altogether too obvious and distracting.

el grillo said...

Also, there are always more ways to look at an issue than right or wrong. A person can be against having the federal government getting involved in moral issues and still not be in favor of killing babies.

If I was in charge of an "Intelligence" committee and somebody asked if it would be OK to abuse a prisoner in any way, it wouldn't take me all day to answer. Obviously we have not elected a person who represents my point of view.

By the same token, Pelosi, etal, represent my point of view on only a few issues, but I am really pleased with Mrs. Clinton, so far. I hadn't expected much, but any dancing puppet could have replaced Rice to an advantage.

(I should anticipate your response that hardly anybody represents my point of view, in case you were deceived into thinking it made any difference to me. Being popular was important to me in the sixth grade.)

dmarks said...

el grillo said: "Fair Trade and Free Trade are not even remotely related."

That is true to the point that what is usually called "Fair Trade" is much less fair than what is usually called "Free Trade". In "free Trade", the people trading decide what is fair. In "Fair Trade", the government elites force their personal idea of what is "fair" on everyone, whether or not it is really fair.

"Fair Trade is an effort to offer farm products to the world without dealing with brokers that are no longer relevant."

That is allowed under free trade.

"Free Trade is an effort to retain trade within the clutches of corporate brokers"

Not at all. It lets the people decide. But it does get trade out of the clutches of the ruling elites.

"...(such as the Bush-dominated United Fruit Company) who can only survive by having laws passed to protect their obsolete presence."

Laws? Free trade removes such laws.

"CAFTA, in particular, abuses small businesses in most countries in Central America"

No, it does not. It merely lifts government restrictions and punishments on them.

"and NAFTA has a huge database of failures and abuses in the countries who were coerced to sign up for it."

The problems with NAFTA have to do with the unnecessary restrictions still left in it.

The Free Enterprise description you gave fits "Free Trade".

"The reaction by my former Republican party leadership..."

You can't blame them for that now. Obama is the one doing it, and the Republicans are more likely to protest the bailouts at the tax protests.

"The blame for the damage done will obviously be referred to by the typical AM radio listener as the Obama economics that sucked the life-blood from a "fundamentally strong" world economy."

The typical AM listener is often, as in this case, quite civically informed. It is Obama who is doing bailouts with no strings attached, and it is Obama who is running the deficit to record heights.

"I would be happy to listen carefully to a televangelist..."

I don't care to listen to televangelists. Why do you?

"For now, the hate-mongering racism is altogether too obvious and distracting."

Rev. Wright was laughed off the stage, so the racism are not distracting much of anyone anymore.

"A person can be against having the federal government getting involved in moral issues and still not be in favor of killing babies."

Or, you can be like President Obama and the Democrats, who favor massive government funding to encourage and reward abortion.

"but any dancing puppet could have replaced Rice to an advantage."

Rice was far smarter than Hillary, and worked to make the world a better place.

el grillo said...

Leaves me breathless.

I just finished "Tear Down This Myth", by Will Bunch. It describes in great detail where your information comes from and why.

Current observations indicate that your perspective is being shared by a declining number of people.

This is unfortunate, since the Republican Party at one time had the capability of leadership of a great country. There was a point when the entire federal government was under the control of the Republican Party, and rather than provide leadership for the world, they chose instead to violate the Constitution (Iran-Contra, Grenada, Guantanamo, etc) increase federal spending (S&L bailout,etc), increase the debt (essentially selling the country into foreign ownership), increase the number of government employees,(reduced by Clinton, increased again by Bush), shifted wealth from the middle class to the already well-off, increased spending on military toys, and reduced the global image of "America The Beautiful" to the "collossus of the north".

Allowing theologians to hold the reins of power has worked as well for us as it has for Iran.

To our credit, we have relieved the G.O.P. of its stranglehold and have begun the difficult task of cleaning up the mess.

To quote Ronald Reagan:
"Killing civilians in a strike against terrorists would be 'an act of terrorism itself' ""Who controls the past" ran the Party slogan, "controls the future; who controls the present controls the past." George Orwell, 1984

el grillo said...

Leaves me breathless.

I just finished "Tear Down This Myth", by Will Bunch. It describes in great detail where your information comes from and why.

Current observations indicate that your perspective is being shared by a declining number of people.

This is unfortunate, since the Republican Party at one time had the capability of leadership of a great country. There was a point when the entire federal government was under the control of the Republican Party, and rather than provide leadership for the world, they chose instead to violate the Constitution (Iran-Contra, Grenada, Guantanamo, etc) increase federal spending (S&L bailout,etc), increase the debt (essentially selling the country into foreign ownership), increase the number of government employees,(reduced by Clinton, increased again by Bush), shifted wealth from the middle class to the already well-off, increased spending on military toys, and reduced the global image of "America The Beautiful" to the "collossus of the north".

Allowing theologians to hold the reins of power has worked as well for us as it has for Iran.

To our credit, we have relieved the G.O.P. of its stranglehold and have begun the difficult task of cleaning up the mess.

To quote Ronald Reagan:
"Killing civilians in a strike against terrorists would be 'an act of terrorism itself' ""Who controls the past" ran the Party slogan, "controls the future; who controls the present controls the past." George Orwell, 1984

el grillo said...

CAFTA is a mimeographed copy of NAFTA...at 1000 pages a crack the most ridiculous document ever written to replace a system that was functioning very well.

el grillo said...

agnosticrat;
While your parents may have rejected the "everybody else is doing it" excuse, I assume they also tossed in the one about "What would happen if everybody did that?"

Whatever lame excuse we use to justify abusing prisoners will be sufficient to encourage torture of future hostages and prisoners from our own country. Leaving the moral issue behind, mere self-preservation insists that we act humanely and observe at least minimal human rights toward others.

The global animosity created since 1981 has continued to grow, fueled by arrogance and "neo-con" greed. Expecting to reverse this trend in one term of a new administration is not reasonable, but holding feet to the fire and replacing the hawks with the ballot will at least stall their abuses.

The serious task is not to identify obvious dunces like Hoekstra, but to locate and encourage replacements that have the potential to be less of an embarrassment to the human race.

agnosticrat said...

We don't torture, because it is immoral, and inhuman.
We don't torture, because it does not work.
We don't torture, because doing so does give leeway to others to do likewise.

Grillo,
We don't torture.
Not simply, because of a pesky law that gets in the way from time to time. We made the law in order to punish those that pay no attention to all of these reasons why we do not torture.

dmarks said...

CAFTA is a great idea because it reduces trade restrictions. So what if it is on the same general idea of NAFTA?

"Allowing theologians to hold the reins of power has worked as well for us as it has for Iran."

Thankfully, it has not happened here, or even come close. The candidacies of Jesse Jackson and Pat Roberson went no-where.

"To our credit, we have relieved the G.O.P. of its stranglehold and have begun the difficult task of cleaning up the mess."

You seem to confuse the mess Obama is making on his own with "cleaning up the mess".

Let's look at several of your points:

"Grenada".

Helping Grenada repel the Soviets was not un-Constitutional.

"increase federal spending (S&L bailout,etc)"

Obama is increasing federal spending with corporate welfare (ahem) bailouts at a record rate, evne more than Bush. He is willingly doing this, and refuses to do the responsible thing of passing sane budgets.

"increase the debt (essentially selling the country into foreign ownership)"

According to a variety of sources, Obama is willingly creating the highest budget deficit ever this year, and will exceed Bush's 8 years of debt within 4 years.

"increase the number of government employees,(reduced by Clinton, increased again by Bush)"

Clinton also increased the number of government employees.

"shifted wealth from the middle class to the already well-off"

Bush cut taxes on the middle class, shifting wealth from the rulers to the ruled. In contrast, Obama is putting in place major tax hikes on the middle class. Like any tax increase, this will benefit the well-off primarily (as bureaucrats in government tend to be rich).

"increased spending on military toys"

So? Defense is a legitimate federal espense. I do not blame Presidents when they are doing their job.

"and reduced the global image of "America The Beautiful" to the "collossus of the north".

Did not happen.

dmarks said...

Also, "The global animosity created since 1981 has continued to grow, fueled by arrogance and "neo-con" greed."

There are very few neo-cons, and they have little power. Also, I've looked at their policies, and they tend to be rather non-greedy.

If you want to look at greed, look at the policies of the hard-left.

el grillo said...

It would be nice to have more participation in this conversation to keep it from becoming boring and repetitious. If I were to agree on the extremely fine legal definition of "torture" and ignore our military adventurism by sugar-coating it with some cute phrases of patriotic-sounding double-speak, perhaps I could ignore the facts as well, and amble along covered with personal Vaseline.

I will avoid confrontation by merely stating that your perceptions must be true because they are yours, and I am being mislead by reading the perceptions of people who don't live in the USA, don't listen to AM radio, don't watch FOX News, don't spend Sunday morning at the rifle range, don't see abortion issues as the most important problem in the universe, don't find Dick Cheney particularly filled with wisdom, and never even heard of Rush Limbaugh. As a matter of fact I was surprised to learn that most of my multi-lingual neighbors could not correctly identify Winston Churchill (Canadienses excepted). On the other hand, I find the same reaction here when I mention the Grameen Bank and the Grameen Trust (a greedy hard left pair if ever devised).

I realize that my views do not conform with those of either of you and in an earlier time that would have caused you to review your own position rather than merely repeating what you have been taught.

I have reviewed my own position and have readily admitted that I am only reflecting a perspective held outside of this part of the country.

As far as neo-cons being "non-greedy", I suppose that refers to their large donations to causes they support financially, like large houses of worship. I find the "hard-left" equally abhorrent, but I suppose your definition includes anybody who would ride a bike instead of an Escalade.

el grillo said...

Is anybody as curious as I am about the safety of the chemicals used to kill the dreadful moths in Barry County (another taxpayer-funded event). Have we also been relieved simultaneously of those other sweater-eating nuisances and those dreadful Mexican Monarch immigrant butterflies? Rachael and I will be happier when we are not awakened each lovely Spring morning by the incessant chatter of bug snatching birds.

el grillo said...

As I logged on, I was attracted to a news headline that claimed a report by the Pentagon that 5% of the Guantanamo detainees have returned to terrorism. Typical of my bad habit, I read on down the article and found that the inflammatory headline was the typical failure to tell the truth.

The Pentagon that gave us lots of good reasons to invade Iraq has decided that it is pretty likely that the folks they had in custody and were forced to release because they didn't have any reason for incarcerating them in the first place, probably considered joining a terrorist group after they were released. They, of course, have no proof that this is true, but if you can't trust our military intelligence people, who can you trust? Great reporting.

Sadly, most readers will not get past the headlines.

dmarks said...

Actually, the reason people ended up in "Gitmo" was because they were caught committing terrorism in the first place. There were a few exceptions, a very few innocent people who were caught up in the dragnet too.

agnosticrat said...

Since 2007, more than 100 detainees were released, significantly more than in previous years, according to Pentagon officials.
These were the "very few" innocent people?

el grillo said...

Dragnet is an excellent choice of words. Somewhat like gill netting.

What I am struggling with is why Carl Levin and Debbie Stabenow are not on the Nightly News every night screaming in support of our new President's determination to close this haven of human rights atrocities.

Imagine how little courage they would have if their party was in a minority position.

Guantanamo, and what it stands for in the eyes of the rest of the outside world, is more effective at recruiting terrorists than anything Hollywood could have created as a marketing tool.

When we buy back our media journalists who sneak across into hostile countries to manufacture news they become heroines and heroes, writing books, speaking at commencements, riding in parades, etc. Why would that celebrity not be just as intent in the Muslim world when a prisoner who was held for years without a formal charge finally is reunited with his home?

Osama bin Laden wants YOU! (Caption under the 2001 photo of ObL down on one knee with his trusty assault rifle that we still see on the news whenever he sends out a new message. Reminds me of an NRA ad.)

dmarks said...

Ag: Those people were caught fighting in terrorist armies.

Guantanamo is not effective at recruiting terrorists. After all, Al Qaeda recruited terrorists before its operatives were ever put into "Gitmo". The place is a disincentive for terrorism. It puts for the idea that if you commit atrocities, there are consequences.

el grillo said...

D Grade;
First of all, terrorists don't fight in "armies". As Obama has recognized, by putting an experienced street fighter in charge, they operate secretively with the full support of the citizens of their country, much like the patriots we build statues to recall.

Secondly, if Guantanamo was a disincentive we would have less terrorism instead of more. Al Queda was about to disintegrate until we gave the people a cause to rally around.

Fortunately, with the exception of Hammity and Rash and a few lingering malcontents, we have again reached out and grasped the high ground. Hopefully, within a few years of careful diplomacy and negotiation we will dispel the terrible reputation we have earned by our human rights violations and will once again be considered worthy of leadership.

Even the disgustingly slow military justice system is capable of filing charges and gathering enough evidence to support a trial, providing that they haven't locked up an innocent bystander for a few years.

I have to assume that you think the prisoners at Guantanamo have all been charged with wrongdoing at some point. So, who told you that? Do you believe everything you hear? From anybody? I heard that you have an elephant in your garage. You had better check it out.

el grillo said...

By the way, Debbie Stabenow has written back to me and assured me that she is in full support of closing Guantanamo.

dmarks said...

First of all, terrorists do fight in armies. In fact, most of them fight in such organizations, rather than as "lone wolves" like the guy who murdered the abortion doctor.

"Secondly, if Guantanamo was a disincentive we would have less terrorism instead of more"

We do have less terrorism, and fewer terrorists than before we decided to deal effectively with the root cause of the problem.

"we have again reached out and grasped the high ground"

Again? More like always. We had 8 years of careful diplimacy and negotiation, and any such "terrible reputation" was really a minor factor, and the result of bad PR, not bad actions.

"Why would that celebrity not be just as intent in the Muslim world when a [guilty terrorist] finally is reunited with his home?"

These people were caught committing atrocities, not doing good tnings. And yes, some sickos might consider them heroes. All the reason not to release them.

The" manufactured news" reference was odd. I think you were merely referring to people trying to report facts you'd rather not have reported.

Closing Gitmo is fine as long as the terrorists are not released, but instead moved to another place.

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