About 70 years ago the world was taught the lesson of what can happen when a charismatic figure skillfully manipulates ordinary people’s fears, ignorance, hatred and greed and creates a mob of willing accomplices to evil, murderous acts. But have we learned? There are far too many people in West Michigan who are willing to give up some of the most cherished (or so I thought) principles in the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights in the U.S. Constitution.
One of the most well documented recent examples is the incident in which a woman of Muslim faith was denied a ride on a public transit bus because she was wearing a birka that covered her face. The driver and the transit authority have since recanted the decision, thanks to the tremendous sense of fairness exhibited by GR Mayor George Heartwell.
The woman apparently strongly felt she was wronged, and she was. The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution clearly states that “Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion,” nor no shall it exercise authority over “the free exercise thereof.” By not allowing the woman the same rights and privileges afforded all other U.S. citizens because she was following a customary practice of her religion, a public transit service was denying this woman her civil rights, which she is entitled to like the rest of us.
Afterward, the much-maligned ACLU caught wind of the incident and stepped in to force public transit officials to admit their error and now there has been talk of her getting some kind of monetary compensation in the wake of her “public humiliation.” I’m not particularly pleased about the financial compensation part of the issue although one wonders whether cmmunities would act responsibly without the threat of a financial penalty hanging over them, but I do believe a strong message must be sent to the public that religious bigotry and discrimination will not be tolerated in a free and
democratic society.
Many in the public apparently need to hear that message. The Grand Rapids Press has published a number of letters from local and area citizens who contend the transit driver was correct in denying her a ride, arguing something to the effect that “Have we forgotten what happened on Sept. 11, 2001?” Thus the disgusting specter of fear and ignorance has reared its ugly head. Apparently there are many paranoid bigots that seem to have forgotten Roosevelt's refrain that "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself."
I can’t believe we are so afraid of any Muslim woman enough to deny her the rights and privileges the rest of us enjoy. While it is true she, or anyone else for that matter, could be carrying some kind of explosive device and blow up the bus, but the chances of that happening are no better than the likelihood the bus will be struck by lightning or crashed into by a meteorite. Unfortunately, the Bush administration has used the tragedy of 9/11 to win political battles and the media has been used by the administration and other sources time and again to whip the people into a state of frenzy to sell the war in Iraq and just about everything else. Hitler and his henchmen were successful in demonizing the Jews, communists, gays and any other kind who didn’t look and think just like the majority (or even a powerful minority). And they were able to whip the masses into a frenzy with tragic consequences.
I know it’s been said many times before, but it apparently needs to be said again. If we allow fear and ignorance to overpower our ability to reason, we will repeat mistakes that lead to tragic consequences that should never be forgotten. We must be smart and use common sense. We must measure the threat, if any, a woman in a birka might pose versus the damage it does our society to let fear and hatred rule of lives. And remember, there is risk in getting out of bed and living every day. If we live in constant fear and turn away from the principles that supposedly made this country different from all others... then the terrorists indeed will have won.
We’re often hearing that we go to war and that our soldiers risk their lives to preserve our freedoms, but we’ve got to make certain these freedoms actually exist and that the battles are worth fighting. If we don’t truly respect freedom of religion, freedom of speech and yes, the right to bear arms, then “freedom” will be just an empty buzzword and this country won’t be worth fighting for. True American patriots should rally around this Muslim woman and everyone else who is under attack for having beliefs, appearances or customs that put them in the minority. While I've made several references to the people of Germany being manipulated during the reign of the Nazis, let us not forget several dark chapters in American history that prove it can also happen here... now. The question is: fear or freedom?
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64 comments:
Pol:
The transit driver was following the transit policy at the time that was put in place to prevent hijackers or thieves from harassing or harming drivers and passengers.
The policy, which has been since revised did not take into account the cultural sensitivities that would possibly arise from this policy's enforcement.
I doubt the driver was thinking 9/11 or the like, just following the rules. The rules were flawed and corrective action was taken. Now religious zealots have, like the ACLU made mountains out of molehills to assert their prerogatives.
I think this is a poor example to prove your overarching point.
Jay is right. You went all the way to Grand Rapids to highlight bigotry and religious insensitivity when you could have proven "your overarching point" by placing a Muslim or a Jew or a Buddhist etc. in the County Courthouse to suffer the insensitive humiliation of various invocations of local sects.
The number of buses that have been set on fire and bombed in this country justifies all kinds of rules to be blindly followed. Blindly following stupid rules is an accusation too insulting for even a bus driver.
I was going to say "and I have some swampland in Florida,etc." but then I remembered we just bought $10,000 worth of wetlands from some farmers.
The infamous 'face bomb' should not be overlooked. True, there is no recorded incident but if it were to be done, where better than 'Grand Rapture'.
Seriously folks, a woman in a mu-mu, a person with a duffle bag? A bulky overcoat or a huge doll, it would seem, present far more danger...
Pol is right. The covering of a face with a veil, though unusual here, constitutes no danger whatsoever and lord only knows what lies beneath seemingly ordinary American Clothing...Oh, no, I forgot, Tim McVie used an all American, (not imported) truck to express his patroitism.
Since the election The Hrand Rapture City Council and Mayor Geroge Heartwell have decided to test the constituionality of Prop. #2 in the courts. It is well to recall that the issue was voted DOWN in Grand Rapture, so, the elected officials have done the proper thing in seeking judicial review. I mention this because letter writers of similar vein have been attacking the move to the courts on the infantile notion that 'majority rules' in a somewhat schoolyard quality argument.
No folks, the majority rules when they act within the rules. The majority could vote to again disenfranchise women or that fat people be denied food until proper body mass index is reached. But neither would pass muster.
This administration (and others before it), newspapers, television all thrive on selling fear. That there are willing consumers is beyond question.
As to the ACLU: They do not at without a plaintiff. While the ACLU is designed to be the watchdog of civil liberties, they have to have a plaintif to bring action.
In my lifetime I have watched as the ACLU has even defended nazis when their right to assemble was unconstitutionally denied them.
The first Ten Ammendments to the Constitution of the United States were inacted because THE RIGHTS OF THE PEOPLE had been ignored in this basic document that was devoted to the operation of the government.
As has been shown time after time, those who most loudly demand that the Ten Commandments be displayed in public places, can't recite them when confronted.
It remains sadly true that a similar few Americans can list the Bill of Rights, the first Ten Ammendments of our Constitution.
el:
I agree with Pol's premise, but the example doesn't quite fit. If Pol was to cite the Muslims who were denied boarding on a US Air flight because their pre-boarding prayers alarmed passengers, then his point would of fit on the button.
The bus policy was a pre 9/11 policy, though poorly conceived, it was the policy. The bus driver wasn't evoking 9/11 when he enforced the policy, he was enforcing transit policy.
The woman through her attorneys caused the policy to be reviewed and corrective measures were taken.
I do not blame the bus driver or GR Transit for that matter, since the policy was corrected when a harm due to this policy was demonstrated.
To carry on about this incident is idiotic. The yahoos ranting that the bus driver is some "homeland security hero" need to wake up.
I just don't agree with Pol that this denial of service was motivated over a deep-seeded fear/bias seeded by 9/11. Has the media attention caused those biases to bubble to the surface and spew forth from narrow-minded ninnies??--sure I just think that in this instance, Pol is giving the ninnies more credit than they are due.
Jay, while the person may have been following policy, do you really think it occured to NO ONE that such an issue might arise. The burka issue has been a hot button since the woman in Florida with her drivers license photo in the aftermath of 9/11.
But whether the policy was pre-9/11 isn't the REAL issue. It's that NO ONE seems to have felt it necessary to ignore or revise stupid and outdated policies and that is a PERFECT example to talk about issues of religious and ethnic discrimination which brings us to the fact that el Grillo understood the point of it even as he stated that he didn't.
Whether a bus driver and a city are sensitive enough to permit a woman's wearing of a birka on a city bus might have something to do with a FORMER commissioner's recent public meltdown in defense of health care services being rendered by a "faith based" provider. You connect the dots...
As for the transit system not keeping up with every minute detail of their polices...c'mon. We still have antiquated social codes on the Michigan books, but the legislature is in no hurry to change those because they are rarely if at all enforced.
I don't think the transit system saw a need to change this particular policy until a problem arose because they had more pressing transportation issues on their minds. Once the problem arose, it was corrected. That's the story.
If my limited interest in history serves me correctly, the Viet Nam conflict accomplished one decent thing and that was that it reversed the centuries old idea that a soldier had to commit atrocities if he was ordered to. People now have a responsibility to exercise good judgement. Defending bad judgement is also defending atrocities. The bus driver was exercising his own and not somebody elses rules.
Today my dentist was very happy to have been allowed to return from visiting relatives in the USA without more than the usual harrassment.
Sleep well, your National Guard is in Iraq.
And getting more reinforcements!
Oh, and if it was just policy, why was she allowed on the next bus.
We are all insensitive louts from time to time. Hell I even refered to the only president we have as Alfred E. Newman after is pathetic speech last night. He started out with 9-11 even though he constantly says they were not connectd...then on to A Quida or who ever they are (you spell it), over and over again.
It seems that he has no shame nor is the big lie any less operative in this Administration.
There is no way this civil war will be ended with American Military. No matter how long, how many lives and billions of dollars we spend on it. the outcome will not be effected by our military action on the ground.
We lost at least 20,000 more dead after Nixon Veitnamesed the war.
Last night we attacked the Iranian Embassy in Mosul, in the Kurdish section of Iraq. Prevoking another diversion. You bet. And since we have used up the ground forces and exposed ourselves as being impotent on the ground we will be 'forced' to attack Iran with seaborn airpower...
Unlees this idiot is bought under control he will try to divert out attention to another pre-emptive war and the erosion of civil liberties will accelerate...
Folks down here are watching, in the way you would watch a drunk stagger down the street. There is always the possibility that he may come your way. Here they refer to it as TLC/CAFTA.
They sure made Bank Robberies easier. I saw a recent video of a bank robber with a similiar "mask." Yes, he violated MCL 750.396 by wearing a mask in public, with the intent to commit a crime. But, it's only a misdemeanor. But, the video bank camera won't get a good pic of him/her if we allow such concealment to continue, without question or suspicion. The normally higher rate of arrests for Bank robberies, etc., will fall.
The young lady in Hastings who stole the purse, but got caught on video, should have worn a birka. She wouldn't have got caught on video and her pic in the Banner. She wouldn't be facing charges now.
Shootings in GR are rampant. Crime is on the rise and Michigan is on the decline. We should not live in fear, but we certainly should take steps to be safe. Robberies and muggings are more of a reason for not allowing people to walk around "concealed!"
But, I'm sure BIG BROTHER watching us on video will be brought into the fray now.
I don't believe the law/policy/or drivers action was predicated on religion or the fear of terroristic attack. Probably the driver has been robbed before and was looking out for his safety and that of his passengers?
A person sitting in a professional office with their face covered BEFORE commiting a crime WOULD be remembered...as would a person who were to enter a bank or party store in a ski mask.
No where did anyone ever say the bus driver had been robbed before..
No My Friend...It's kind of like 'freedom fries".
I might add that the 19 terrorists who hijacked the airplanes on 9-11 were not masked. They were, by the way, mostly Egyptians with a few Saudi's, all our allies...No Iraqi's.
But then....we can't be too careful about the infamous 'face bomb'.
Anybody who thinks that opposition to birkas isn't religious bigotry is very much in tune with the USA media dog-and-pony show.
The news down here is mostly about Hugo Chavez who is currently visiting Nicaragua, and about Condoleezza Rice who is schmoozing the next Democratic President of the USA.
Oh! Have you heard the one about the guy who tried to sneak on a bus while wearing pants? He was concealing a "butt bomb"!
Partthetruth (you spell it)or whoever they are, Fuels more distrust and hate by widening the scope of fear to our "friends".
To be sure what was said is true. The 9/11 perpetrators were Saudi, and Egyptian. Leading the reader to believe the best defense is distrust of all brown people. A wrong tactic if one wishes to quell hate mongering. Pat should point out the scores of muslim americans that live their lives in peace here in the U.S. Going to work every day, paying taxes, Buying goods and services, and never likely to strap on bombs. Pat is not a hate mongerer and I point this out as a bit of constructive critique.
We all think in generalizations, it is when those generalizations are compounded with fear that it is likely we would do something that goes against our principles. i.e. Invading a nation that poses no logical threat, or deneying a bus ride to someone that openly displays their religous conviction. The process of reparation has begun in the latter, and it is my belief that as we begin to sum up the cost of reparations in the prior our road home will begin to be clear.
Consider the cost not just in lives, and ill will, when troops begin kicking in doors in the midst of a capitol city, of a nation that was invaded under false pretenses. Like an officer fireing a lethal shot at an unarmed suspect in the the streets of New York there will be repercussions. There will be lawyers, and juries, and this nations declaration much like that officers that " We thought there was a gun" will fall flat on the ears of byestanders (the likely jurors) that bear us no good will.
A case for harrasment will be made. Evidence brought forth that after years of deneying the freedom of a capitolist market, and self defense. Like screems of Attica, there will be dissertations of injustice such as those that went on in the makeshift torture chambers by sadistic guards in places such as abu grab. Demands of cold hard cash will be looked upon by american lawyers, and citizens of this nation as inappropriate, but in the end we will pay anything to get this monkey off our back.
My point being that there will be nothing that will come from our fear, but a bill for reparations.
And why not?
We have a chance this very moment to keep the tally to a minimum and I encourage you to look your child in the eyes and explain to them how this is the second, the minute, the hour, that you say NO MORE! We can't afford it, and I can't possibly give your generation the thought that we could have, should have, done something.
Can anyone here trully say they wouldn't have done a "double take" if they had encountered the woman in a birka had they been in the same spot as the driver. We may have reacted differently but the truth is, we are all aware that while most muslims are peaceful, a significant number of them practice a version of religion that dictates it is thier duty to kill the infidels (americans) and they will be richly rewarded in heaven for doing so. I know of no way to differentiate the two versions of islam so to maintain safety one might need to discriminate against the non violent sect. This violent sect of muslims will even strap bombs on thier children and convince them to walk onto buses or infiltrate checkpoints to kill innocents. All one has to do is to watch the evening news to see this happeneing every day IN THIER OWN COUNTRIES.
If one remembers correctly, the last thing these religious zealots say before dying was something to the effect of "praise allah". They are convinced/indoctrinated/learned that the way to thier heaven is to kill as many infidels as possible before dying. One interesting thing I have noticed is that it seems to be always low level people in thier organization that strap on the bombs and go die for thier cause, not the "top" players, lol.
I have no fast answer to remedy this, just more questions. But to punish the driver/system for thier vigilence is counterproductive to our well being as far as staying physically safe. Agno brought up the fact that we may be teaching our children something we should not and suggested we teach them to to say "no more" to racisim. Might we not be better off to teach them to better identify those that wish us ill and to take action against them instead of "shotgunning" discrimination? Would we even be having this discussion if someone had "discriminated" against those highjackers that crashed the jets by prohibiting them from even boarding? How many husbands/wives/brothers/sisters/parents are there now that lost someone in the trade center that would not have gladly discriminated against these charactors to have saved thier loved ones. Lets not "go blindly into the night" here and inhibit the vigilence of those whose one limited act may save someone we love. Lets not let our "small town" mentality cloud our better judgement from protecting us from the world pushing in on us.
The bottom line is that the system worked here. This action by the driver may have been a little extreme for now (for our area) and it was corrected. tomorrow, this drivers actions may be viewed as too little too late.
Dad,
While deneying a differentiation between violent, and non-violent sects, and treating both as second class, or criminal, will sow a seed that may likely make the difference negligable or non-existant. Maybe I would give the non-racist arguement more creedence, if at the time of the Murrow bombing, young white males were kept from renting moving vans due to an outcry from "concerned citizens" like the bus driver. Those low level players hillariously strapping on bombs are exactly the fruits of dads policy being put into action in Beirut. Young men without jobs, and opportunity. Kept from boarding buses because of nationality, and religous beliefs. They are simply tools for the likes of simular "racists" on the other side of the fence. Contrary to your misguided belief, they wear no masks. Their pictures are broadcast to the masses in 15 minutes of perverted fame. Their mothers are so proud for them to kill and make money for the family they make shrines and hang posters with photos throughout the city. Maybe because their burka kept them off a bus somewhere?!
Watch CNN and BBc a little more. Women in Burkas have blown more than 1 bus to pieces. And children without burkas have done the same. And young men... get the point? They bring thier battle to us (crashing jets into skyscrapers) and you worry about discriminating against someone in a burka? Yes it is regretable for sure that we have been brought to this point. I will not argue that. But to stick ones head in the sand and think even for a moment it won't happen here will just garrantee that it will.
Watch CNN and BBc a little more. Women in Burkas have blown more than 1 bus to pieces. And children without burkas have done the same. And young men... get the point? They bring thier battle to us (crashing jets into skyscrapers) and you worry about discriminating against someone in a burka? Yes it is regretable for sure that we have been brought to this point. I will not argue that. But to stick ones head in the sand and think even for a moment it won't happen here will just garrantee that it will.
I am sorry if you understand me to say that I advocate concidering the non violent sect of Islam as being second class. That is not my intent. What I am saying is that we may be forced to concider all sects of islam as a threat to our safety. If you can stop crying "racisim" for a moment and figure out how to differentiate between violent and non violent practitioners of Islam you will solve one of the most pressing problems of our generation. Until then, we may be forced to treat them all the same to protect our lives. how many in your family are you willing to sacrifice in order to not be concidered racist? If Muslims are upset because they are being "targeted" for racist attacks, why do they not police thier own? Good Lord, I realize how I am sounding right now but I do wonder why they do not speak out against violence occuring in thier name? Why do we hear so much and so clearly from Sharpton and Jackson if some impoverished child in Harlem is discriminated against yet if 50 Muslims in Bagdad are murdered, all we hear is that we should tuck tail and run. Why are not all of the service age muslim Males in this country joining our military to protect thier own countries? this country ran to the aid of the european countries durring WWII and that is concidered one of this countries finest periods. Are Muslims actually concidered to be second class and not worthy of our protection?
In the mosque of a radical Muslim cleric, today, you will hear him whine in another language, "Might we not be better off to teach them to better identify those that wish us ill and to take action against them?"
Of course, he is just an ignorant person who has never left his bigoted home. He thinks that everybody should share his religious beliefs and if they resist they should be attacked and executed, or sent to concentration camps and tortured.
My kids are more afraid of Christians in robes and pointy hats with eyeholes than ladies in birkas, but they have been outside of Barry County and have visited the outside world. Some have friends who wear funny clothing, including Muslims and Amishes.
I would suggest that when you are listening to CNN and BBC you should do it with the volume knob turned on. There are many Arab people employed by our government in military positions, and they know the difference between Shias and Sunnis. They are trying to restore order in a place where Baathists ruled both fairly and unfairly. These are probably strange names to a person who considers all "camel-jockeys" to be the same.
I should add that the U.N.Representative from Iraq under Saddam Hussein was a Catholic.
dad , I am sorry but you DO advocate the treatment of peacable people as second class citizens. It is not sand my head is buried in. It is the fecal matter that has been flung in every direction by those that wish to make this nation something it has not been in 40 years. By using the popular refrain "remember 9/11" to deny citizens of this nation a right to move about freely, you vanquish the very ideas this nation was founded on. This is monumental. We are not experiencing a "short term infraction" of civil rights. You are advocating that if you are a muslim in this nation, muslims, and their families will have no rights for the rest of their lives. If we allow for this "poor decision" by a "concerned citizen" now, we will be making the same excuses in twenty, thirty and a hundred years. Think of this when you laugh out loud at your television tonight watching old footage of a black man tell you he has a dream, and those that chose to make something, of what was considered nothing by others with fear in place of logic. These were people that were allowed on the bus, ...in the back.
Agnosticrat,
Well done!
El Grillo, you do seem to have the racist labels down better than I. I haven’t heard the “Camel Jockey” thing in years.
If you go back and read the news papers prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor, you will see your doppelganger was writing then. You ridicule a position not in agreement with yours and I will speculate that you will not stand and admit your mistake when the fecal matter hits the fan, just like he did. I agree with you on some points, that in an ideal world we should not discriminate against anyone or anything. But as I hope you realize, we do not live in that world. Neither you nor agno seem to value or concern yourselves of true risk. To discount that bus drivers concern is fool hardy. Yes, it may have been a little extreme for this area right now, but it may not be in the future. If you think you are “insulated” from what goes on in other countries and it will never happen here, I have news for you. It will and it has. To ignore it will only bring grief to our lives.
You don't seem to remember that it was Christians that spoke out against those "Christians in white robes and pointy hats" that you mention so eloquently. I cannot remember any Muslims taking an equal stand against the violence occurring in this country. How many Islamic Clerics spoke out against the trade center massacre? How many Islamic clerics are there comparable with Jesse or Al? Do you think for a moment that Either Jesse or Al would accept the discrimination going on here that goes on there? Jesse and Al encourage peaceful resistance and demonstration. they do not promote killing those that oppose them or thier position. I stand accused here of treating Muslims as second class citizens but It is not I that advocates tucking tail and running from the fight to protect them. I believe they deserve the same protection as a white Anglo Saxon. Why don’t you?
Agno, you claim you do not want this country to go back to something it was 40 years ago. I believe you are referring to blatant discrimination occurring to people. Where have you been? I have been treating Hispanics for a couple of years now and wonder why you do not think they have been discriminated against? Why have you not spoke out against the poor treatment these people have received? are you advocating that they be treated as second class people? Or how about the Vietnamese? I remember many incidences of discrimination occurring during the late 70's and 80's. Discrimination has been going on forever in response to world events. This does not make it right but it is a defense mechanism we employ to ensure our safety. How do you suggest we garrantee our chilren's safety in the future? Are you suggesting we just "believe" we are safe and that nobody will attack us? Isn't that how Hitler disarmed his populace? Give a solution and we will follow. Give retoric but stand aside.
What dad seems to miss is that what most of us are trying to get across is that the absolute rights assured in the Constitution are for all people, not just citizens.
Hitler did not disarm his people contrary to the propoganda of the NRA and others who have avoided even semi serious reading of history. In 1933 he was elected. During the militarization he was sucessful in demonizing minorities to the grat joy of the majority of the German and German American populace.
The real test of Democracy is not tested when things are going well, but when it is tested.
The genocide this nation inflicted upon the original inhabitatants, the incarceration of Japanese-American Citizens after Pearl Harbor and the racism that is still so alive and well in this nation today are all indicators of our failure to either believe or apply the promise that is embodied in the Constitution of the United States.
There is so much more but suffice it to say that the hypocracy we practice does not go unoticed by the rest of the world.
The time has long past for us to continue to pretend.
pat, I sure wish you were running things when I am treating poor people over in Fenneville. Almost every time I do I witness discrimination, some of it blatent and harsh. our system WAS tested. The bus driver over reacted and the problem was corrected. our system worked as it should. Do not fault the driver as in a different time and situation, you might be thanking him. he is as much a part of the system as anyone, even those crying foul right now.
And Hitler DID disarm the populace. My family had relatives in that country that lived through it. It was not pleasent for them as they believed differently than the top Nazi. maybe you should change history books.
And don't give so much credit to the "rest of the world". it must escape you but they would find something else to complain about if they did not have this, lol. I would rather have them see our system at work like this than to have them see us tuck tail and run.
O.K. CD,
I admit that I made a mistake. I apologize for the crude characterization of Arabs.
You cast a wide net Paternal One!
I didn't know I had to mention all racist acts, when pointing a finger at the ones I have seen, and am seeing. This makes me less than honorable?.
While I would love to discuss the geo politics of pre-world war II Germany, lets stick with the subject at hand.
As for guaranteeing the safety of children in the future goes, buy insurance. There are no saftey guarantees. No warranties, implied, or otherwise.
El Grillo, It was plain to see the sarcasm in your use of the phrase.
I really didn't want to comment today, but I fear being labeled a "tuck and runner", so forgive the brevity.
For amusement during snow days you might Google "Tariq Aziz" the former Deputy Prime Minister of Iraq who is a Chaldean Roman Catholic. There is an interesting Wikipedia link. If you happen to be wintering in a warm foreign country, like me, I should warn you that your suspicious activity will automatically also connect you to AlJazeera links which will subject your future correspondence to scrutiny and wierd underlining in colored dots when you mention White House or Senate, etc.
El Grillo, I never once thought for a moment that you trully were slammimg Arabs, whether they were american arabs or not. I have learned from following this blog for many months now that sometimes things are run a little far to make a point. I hope no one else reading this felt uneasy or threatened but if they do, let me say right now that even though i am not "el grillo", I know there was no ill feelings or ill intent displayed on purpose.
I will also take your word for the info on tariq Aziz as I do not wish to make myself a target of any over zealus homeland security agent, lol. I already have a relative in the Texas Unorganized Militia and won't call or write him for the same reason. now don't get me wrong. I believe we need these over Zealus suedo cops. Because of them I feel comfortable getting on a bus in any city (including Detroit and Chicago) without the fear of getting blown to pieces by someone with an ax to grind. I would not use mass transit in Isreal for that very reason.
Agno, I am making no comments on whether or not you are "honorable" or not. I just detected from your posting that for some reason you were taking more issue on the bus drivers actions than on other more serious discriminitory acts. I am pretty pleased with how our system works and do desire to defend it when it is attacked in some way. When it is determined to be actually faulty in some way, I will be the first to take up arms against it to repair it. I have no fear of retaliation from any "elected mouths" and have demonstrated that on numerous occasions. In fact I enjoy your fervor when I am in agreement with it (which is more often than not. lol).
El Grillo, I never once thought for a moment that you trully were slammimg Arabs, whether they were american arabs or not. I have learned from following this blog for many months now that sometimes things are run a little far to make a point. I hope no one else reading this felt uneasy or threatened but if they do, let me say right now that even though i am not "el grillo", I know there was no ill feelings or ill intent displayed on purpose.
I will also take your word for the info on tariq Aziz as I do not wish to make myself a target of any over zealus homeland security agent, lol. I already have a relative in the Texas Unorganized Militia and won't call or write him for the same reason. now don't get me wrong. I believe we need these over Zealus suedo cops. Because of them I feel comfortable getting on a bus in any city (including Detroit and Chicago) without the fear of getting blown to pieces by someone with an ax to grind. I would not use mass transit in Isreal for that very reason.
Agno, I am making no comments on whether or not you are "honorable" or not. I just detected from your posting that for some reason you were taking more issue on the bus drivers actions than on other more serious discriminitory acts. I am pretty pleased with how our system works and do desire to defend it when it is attacked in some way. When it is determined to be actually faulty in some way, I will be the first to take up arms against it to repair it. I have no fear of retaliation from any "elected mouths" and have demonstrated that on numerous occasions. In fact I enjoy your fervor when I am in agreement with it (which is more often than not. lol).
I sure would like to know what key I am hitting by accident that makes postings duplicate like this.
It's the Redundan "C".
Don't take up any arms on my behalf, for any reason.
For that matter, don't bother to torture anybody or throw them in a concentration camp without any charges on my behalf either. If I want to create enemies and give them an excuse to burn a cross on my lawn I will do it myself with my laptop.
Ha - Ha
too late on your request we not take up arms on your behalf. Many generations before me already have so that you can say that. you might concider some isolated island to take up residense on (if there even is one isolated enough) if you don't want anyone doing anything on your behalf.
And if you haven't noticed, others don't need any reason to burn a cross on your lawn. Your existance is all they need.
You probably haven't noticed that I am connecting with you from a country that disbanded their military forces in 1948. There are five such places, and one is mostly islands.
Costa Rica is not isolated. The USA is isolated and becoming more so. Costa Rica is in the center of what is really happening in the world, but you are not aware of most of this because your reading material has been fed to you like the pablum you seem to prefer.
OK!
So I owe you an apology for over-reacting. I haven't yet learned the art of Conflict Resolution Without Resorting to Violence that is a required course in the local schools here. As you mentioned, I have many generations of violence to thank for my bad attitude.
El grillo -
Is this some more of your exageration or reverse psychology? USA isolated and Costa rica the center of the world? --- Hello! Its time to wake up now. From my friend who is dating a woman living there I got a "Right" at that suggestion. He has traveled there several times to see her and what I gather from him (he loves it there BECAUSE of the isolation) it is very quiet and somewhat poor. Not trully a country at the center of things. We also have just sent a young man from our church to be a missionary there. He reports much the same. I guess you will have to work harder to convince me it is the center of the world.
And it is my turn to appologize. I mistook your words as fervor for a cause and not a "bad attitude". Must be that "pablum" I am reading, lol.
If your church is sending missionaries to a country that was primarily Christian for two hundred years before the Pilgrims landed, I can now understand that you probably get most of your pablumized news from a TV evangelist or from a pulpit, like George W. Bush, Jr., whose family is heavily invested in United Fruit that has caused much poverty in Central America.
Isolation is not geographic. It is a state of mind. I'll bet that your buddy doesn't ride the bus, has his own personal SUV, and speaks marginal Spanish down by the beach. I isolate myself from gringos who come here trying to export the consumerism of the USA. Fortunately, they are usually too drunk to find their way to where I live.
Poor is also a state of mind. Most Ticos are better informed, healthier, happier, and better educated than the average Joe six-pack. They are very poor by "American" standards. They don't have any nuclear weapons, super-carriers, or HumVees, and the airplanes don't carry federal investigators with fear-mongering administrations. They didn't borrow all the money from their Social Security system to raid other countries, so these "poor" people have universal health care, speak more than one language, and all of their county commissioners (alcaldes) have access to the Internet and use e-mail.
Did I mention that we have more than two political party clones? Active debate down here actually derives from different points of view, and the election campaigns are very short, in spite of every effort of the USA/CAFTA/TLC to interfere in the process by injecting large sums of money into the coffers of people who will dance to the gringo puppeteers.
Most of the people I have met in my small community know where Michigan is, and have a relative working and paying taxes in the USA. My dentist was educated at the University of Costa Rica and when she went to the USA she found the dental schools woefully inadequate by Tico standards. We have the third best health care in the entire world. In spite of having twice as much extracted from my Social Security check each month for Medicare B as it costs me for total health insurance here, Medicare doesn't cover me anywhere but in the USA. Most people in the USA, including retirees like myself, are not well enough informed to even realize this isolationism.
Most of the people I have met in the USA think Costa Rica is an island, and couldn't even find a map of the world in order to learn the difference. Few, if any, of my USA neighbors speak any language other than English. Most wouldn't know where Mandarin is helpful, but they all buy from Wal-Mart, because they aren't "poor". Most couldn't find a store that sells papaya, and wouldn't know where to take the first bite.
More to the point, if a woman wearing a burkha got on one of our many buses, the driver would wait for her to take a seat before lurching off to the next stop. Most Muslims stick close to the capital, San Jose, but we have many indigenous near me who speak a tribal language. They are nearly as isolationist as televangelists.
Your prepaid response should be "So why the hell don't you just leave the USA, and leave us alone!"
My answer is that I am a missionary to the USA and hope to be able to help you keep from destroying yourselves and me along with it.
Right ON El Grillo
ABC news last night featured Costa Rica as one of several unique areas in the world where people live longer and better than in all other parts of the world.
As long as I have this much support I will add a little disclaimer. All is not perfect in Paradise. Like most of the world outside the USA, you have to put your used toilet paper in the waste basket because we use only 2" pipes for sewage. This was learned the hard way in Iraq when all of Baghdad backed up into the streets. We have many challenges here that leave room for creative thought.
One advantage of not being rich is that you are forced into cooperation in order to survive.
OOPS!
Well, I guess while I am canceling flight, I can make arrangements to ship you some Lysol. Do they have people that pick that up, or do you have to bury your own poo wads?
Another situation that we have to deal with is outfits like Dow Chemical in Michigan shipping harmful and carcinogenic products to us that are not allowed in the USA.
Thanks for the offer but I would rather wash my hands than spray toxics on them.
The problem is even worse in Panama, where large international corporate farms are the only source of income and people walk around growing export vegetables with tanks of toxics on their backs and nothing but a bandana over their mouth and nose. I'm being kind when I say international, since most of these outfits come from the richest nation in the world.
I might add that the vision of a country not having modern garbage trucks lines up well with the vision of a Mexican taking a nap under a cactus wearing a huge sombrero. Costa Rica is in the process (as is Zeeland, Michigan) of building plants to convert garbage to energy.
Rather than posting a rusty sign begging waitpersons to wash their hands after "pooing", the wash sinks in Costa Rica are outside the restroom where you can get a full view of the habits of your french fry scooper.
Back to the subject, I met the Park Director of the Wilson Botanical Garden yeterday. He was born in Lebanon and got his doctorate in Illinois. He is fluent in many languages and knows the local bus schedule. He doesn't wear fatigues or carry a concealed weapon.
My church is sending a missionary (and funds) as during the course of several trips by different members of our congregation, it was found that Costa Rica was not the "paradise" you have described in this blog. It was found that the youth there was idle and in much trouble. Families were not practicing Christians in contrast to your image of the country being richly Christian. In fact, many approached in Costa Rica had little or no exposure to the Christian Faith in general. There was much to do there as far as educating the populace concerning almost every area of life INCLUDING the Christian faith.
And you do seem to have a rather skewed vision of what my "buddy" might be like. My friend does ride the bus or obtains rides from others as he doesn't even have a License to drive here let alone there. I highly doubt that if he liquidated all of his earthly possessions, He could even purchase a "fair" SUV, lol. No you have a rather distorted vision of him, that’s for sure.
I am beginning to doubt your actual place of habitation. You only recount things an occasional visitor might observe and not things someone actually living there would. One of the things I have noticed coming from both my churches missionary and my friend are the incredibly Spartan living accommodations available there. Even though an average home costs less than $4000, there are many available as there is little to no money to purchase one. You do mention the plumbing problems there but blame size of plumbing rather than the true problem. The more affluent population has none of the plumbing trouble you mention as they have the money to construct a septic system that will handle "poo wads" (thank you Agno, I had my good laugh for the day) and are able to purchase butt wipe that can be flushed down the drain and not reused. There just is not the money available there to continually flush it down the drain like even the poorest families here can do.
The political campaigns are short for the same reason; there is no money there to wage much of one. One of the very few benefits of living in a poor country, lol. And it doesn't appear many there even care about much political, meaning apathy abounds there in greater quantities than here which is not something I would brag about if I were you. This would not be a great selling point.
I am very saddened your dentist had such a disappointing experience while in this country. It has been written extensively that dentistry is a shrinking field here due to our better diet and education. It probably is a good thing he/she went back to Costa Rica where they are needed.
A puzzling thing here is that Sentinel has relayed a report as to the longevity and quality of health/life in Costa Rica yet el Grilllo reports a large and constant stream of carcinogenic and toxic chemicals being imported into that country. El grillo reports a lower level of hygiene due to plumbing problems and even washing facilities being open to the elements. I am having a difficult time combining these two as history has demonstrated repeatedly that increased hygiene leads to longer, healthier lives.
You scream “isolationist” and “racism” yet it is you that finds it noteworthy to mention a man born in Lebanon came to the USA to get his education (could be interpreted as meaning he thinks our education system is the best) and that he does not wear “fatigues and carry a concealed weapon”. Is this what you expect someone to be like coming from Lebanon? Did you ask him if he kept his wife covered at all times she is in public and if she were subservient to him at all times too? You might as well go all the way with your stereotype image. Was he blocked from boarding a bus? Did he wear traditional Bedouin clothes? I guess your mentioning this individual here makes me wonder why. I, like most of my friends, would not have even given this guy a second notice as far as where he comes from. Unless he bulged around the waist unnaturally. And was twitching and sweating profusely. I would get off the bus then Demand to know why the driver let him on.
Well, CD, let’s test the “Pablum News Theory”.
Print out and give this test to the members sitting to the right and left of you in the pew, this Sunday morning.
1. Who is Hugo Chavez?
2. What is the name of the new democratically-elected President of Nicaragua, and where did you hear that name before?
3. What is the Capital of any country in Central America?
4. Name three of the seven Central American countries.
5. What are the Capitols of Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio?
6. Which State of Michigan department deals with migrants?
7. How many County Commissioners are there?
8. Which Barry County Commissioners were unopposed in November, 2006?
9. What is the name of your County Commissioner?
10. Does your County Commissioner have an e-mail address?
11. What are the first and last names of your three closest neighbors?
12. Who is taking care of the oldest living parent of these above neighbors?
13. What are the names of all these neighbor’s children?
14. Do you buy fresh or frozen fruits and vegetables?
15. Do you wash the chemicals off your frozen vegetables? Fresh?
16. Have you pumped your septic tank in the last two years?
17. How many people usually ride in your cars?
18. Do “smart” Cruise missiles kill innocent civilians?
19. Which country has the most NBC “Weapons of Mass Destruction”?
20. Which two countries incarcerate the highest percentage of their citizens?
21. Bonus: Is it legal to confine and torture a person without charging them with a crime?
22. Bonus: Complete the sentence, “Love your ____”, and name who said it. Neighbor is not the answer. Alfred E. Neumann said, “______, me worry?”
They both need to get more than a D (65%) to be better informed than the average school kid in Central America. You need them to both get at least 75% to deny the “Pablum News Theory”. If your preacher takes the test and gets 100% you can call me any name in the book.
"I cannot remember any Muslims taking an equal stand against the violence occurring in this country."
I am sick to death of this tired bit of logic direct from Fox News channel. How many Christian leaders were asked to rebuke Tim McVeigh or David Koresh? I think it's obvious that many oppose the use of violence and I'm sure if you actually cared to find out you might actually Google it or something but instead you continue to live with your blinders because otherwise you might actually have to reconsider your very unenlightened world view which Agnosticrat and el Grillo have pretty effectively exposed. I would also add that contrary to the opinions of you and other Fox News viewers, the majority of the Muslim (Sunni) world was very much opposed to the philosophy of Al Qaeda- at least until we showed how willing we were to bomb Muslims at random, not knowing or caring that there was any difference betweem them. And just because I know you're too lazy too search yourself (took me about 1 minute to find):
link= http://groups.colgate.edu/aarislam/response.htm
* Organization of the Islamic Conference, Doha, Qatar. October 10th, 2001: (representing 56 Muslim nations) "These terrorist acts contradict the teaching of all religions and human and moral values."
*"Terrorists are mass murderers, not martyrs", states Shaykh Hamza Yusuf.
*"Bin Laden's Violence is a heresy against Islam", states Abdul Hakim Murad
*Muslim scholar Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi denounced the attacks against civilians in the U.S.
*Sheikh Mohammed Sayyed al-Tantawi of Al-Azhar, the highest institution in Sunni Islam, warned that those who attack innocent people will be punished by Allah, in his weekly sermon to thousands of worshippers in Cairo. "Attacking innocent people is not courageous, it is stupid and will be punished on the Day of Judgment," the moderate Sheikh Tantawi said at Al-Azhar mosque. "It's not courageous to attack innocent children, women and civilians. It is courageous to protect freedom, it is courageous to defend oneself and not to attack," he said.
* "Hijacking Planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood constitute a form of injustice that can not be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts." Shaykh Abdul Aziz al-Ashaikh (Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and Chairman of the Senior Ulama, on September 15th, 2001)
*The terrorists acts, from the perspective of Islamic law, constitute the crime of hirabah (waging war against society)." Sept. 27, 2001 fatwa, signed by:
Shaykh Yusuf al-Qaradawi (Grand Islamic Scholar and Chairman of the Sunna and
Sira Countil, Qatar)
Judge Tariq al-Bishri, First Deputy President of the Council d'etat, Egypt
Dr. Muhammad s. al-Awa, Professor of Islamic Law and Shari'a, Egypt
Dr. Haytham al-Khayyat, Islamic scholar, Syria
Fahmi Houaydi, Islamic scholar, Syria
Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, Chairman, North America High Council
*"Neither the law of Islam nor its ethical system justify such a crime." Zaki Badawi, Principal of the Muslim College in London. Cited in Arab News, Sept. 28, 2001.
*"It is wrong to kill innocent people. It is also wrong to Praise those who kill innocent people." Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, Pakistan. Cited in NY Times, Sept. 28, 2001.
*"What these people stand for is completely against all the principles that Arab Muslims believe in." King Abdullah II, of Jordan; cited in Middle East Times, Sept. 28, 2001.
The above statements by high ranking international Muslim scholars appeared in an advertisement placed by the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, in the NY Times, October 17th, 2001 (p. A 17)
Whew! I must have struck too close to home, lol.
el grillo, While I do admire your fervor, I do question your logic. All (well, most) of the questions asked could be answered out of the Grand Rapids Press. A newspaper accused in this blog line of being incredibly, almost criminally conservative. Do I understand you to be implying that you are a staunch "conservative"?
I also question your research and basis to determine your questions and grading scale. What unbiased research (supported/duplicated) and results can you produce to support your belief of the average school student’s level of knowledge and why you’re questions would determine educational ranking between my church parishioners and Costa Rican students. It would be interesting to say the least how you came up with this and how accurate it actually is. Or is it just fabricated "pabulum"?
Your questions are somewhat, well, irrelevant at establishing the actual level of education. Not all of course, some are good questions but I do take umbrage at #12. If you know this about your neighbors, I do believe you have your nose in their business way too far. Is nothing personal to you or do you insist on knowing your neighbors private lives? And many of the questions need more clarification. Such as the last one. Upon researching this phrase for 10 minutes I came up with 14 different authors and words to fill in your blank. Simply throwing out one of these and insisting knowing what may be your obscure trivia does in no way establish the level of education in any way.
pol, I took more than the minute you put into your research and of the approximately half of the individuals you quote and I researched, I found anti Semitic, anti American, Anti fellow Arab/Muslim, pro violence, etc... Statements attributed to them. I quit after about half as it was a consistent pattern. I did find a couple of individuals that seemed to be seemingly non existent. And many supported (at least verbally) violence against other Arabs too. This is a troubling pattern I would say. You make a good stab at researching this subject but I fear you quit too soon. This is a freshman med student’s first mistake and one I must admit to making myself. To support your position, try researching the opposite. You might find things that will surprise you.
The problem with “Google” is that it searches a tremendous amount of crap, pabulum, and trash, in other words, anything anyone might type into their computer. This is one of the reasons Google is not an acceptable source for medical research. If this is the body of information you desire to search through, might I suggest “Dog Pile”. This search engine actually utilizes all of the major search engines and will sort through them as per your spec’s. This way you can sort out some of the more obvious worthless pieces of information and not be influenced to read and believe them as if they were gospel. Dog pile has more chance to access established news data sources than Google. Just a suggestion.
I also want to clarify what I think has been purposely overlooked here. Pol, You came up with several anti violence statements from Arabs but not one incident of peaceful resistance to discrimination and violence in an Arab country. When minorities were being discriminated against here, a small quiet black woman refused to turn her seat over to a white. Had Ms. Parks performed her peaceful resistance in Iraq, what do you think the result would be to her life? Over and over again in this country, religious leaders LOUDLY speak out against violence (the latest holiday), stage sit ins, organize rallies, etc… What they do not do is organize private militias, head up gangs or death squads, convince the youth to strap on explosives and walk into crowds, etc… In your extensive research, did you find anywhere that Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson has preached violence against another race or country? I bet not. Why not stand tall and be proud that our system allows us to correct a possibly discriminatory practice instead of criticizing and condemning it.
You know, CD, you got me to thinking. You may be right. I’ve been talking Spanish to these people and most of the time they just look at me funny. I would guess Canada, but it’s really hot. My plane ticket said Costa Rica, but maybe I got off too soon. The people here all speak a foreign language and none of the signs say anything I can understand. Maybe I’m in Miami!
As far as the religious fervor is concerned, you may be right again. History was never a favorite subject but it seems like the Jesuits were definitely against attending regular religious ceremonial exercises, speaking in foreign tongues, and dancing around while drinking fermented fruit juices and human body fluids. They probably stomped those habits out. It’s high time these things received a shot in the arm. Small pox may have been the first exported biological weapon, but it worked like a charm.
So here we are in Miami, resurrecting some ceremonial rituals, and wishing we could all go to Miami Beach and live the good life. What we need is a powerful leader to guide us, like Jimmy Swaggart, or Tammy Eyelashes. This poverty stuff is for the birds (mourning doves, that is). I sure wish I was rich. I’d have my own TV wall and own a complete collection of heavy metal and video games. I’d have pizza delivered for every meal and wash it down with Mountain Dew.
Here I thought I was in Costa Rica, but nobody around me is wearing dirty clothes. The old people are being treated with great dignity. Nobody is going hungry. People sing in public and kiss each other on the cheek. (Pass the Lysol!) The only people wearing guns are policemen, and they don’t look serviceable. I bought a papaya tree today for 20 cents. This has to be Miami!
There is one exception I need to make, however. I wrote that Zak got his doctors degree in the USA, not that he went to school here (in Miami). He was well educated before he arrived here, and already spoke a few languages fluently. He couldn’t wait to leave the USA, and found Illinois to be the ultimate in boring. (Oh, brother! I hope I’m not in South Chicago! Nope, it’s too hot and I’m not surrounded by poverty.) He liked Michigan. I don’t think he got to Detroit.
CD,
Like I said, history isn't my thing, but it seems like one of the things mentioned as a good idea in the New Testament was "knowing your neighbors private lives". Some guy from Samaria got pretty personal after the self-righteous walked down the other side of the road. But like you said, your "Dog Pile" can beat my dog pile anytime.
I wonder from time to time why 'children's dad and his ilk send missionaries to safe, secure, christian and democratic countrys's to do just what?
. I KNOW you Dad, and, I suspect that you would not know a real christian if it bit you on the posterior.
Those of Dad's ilk, who truly cared about the needs of fellow christians the would have been with the true christians in New Orleans, or with lest be too far for yee, the East side of Hasings.
Shhh!
They're looking up the answers to the "Pop" quiz!
... and the optimist said, "With all this dog pile, there must be a puppy in here somewhere!"
Patthetruth, It is pretty evident that you don't know me, lol. I did my share in New Orleans. But what I did not see was you.
Zzzzzzz
Lonesome,
911911911911911911911911911911911911911911911911zzzzzzzzzzzz
CD,
I didn't get "my share" from the New Orleans pork barrel. Hope you fared better. I'll try again after the next levee bursts, as predicted. Are there some tips you could share with us to get in on the pork?
For a real cultural adventure this summer, visit Coldwater or Dearborn.
Most of the crap being built in Jaco is for and by gringos who can´t leave home without air-conditioning.
It is a wonderful place for folks to live to keep them far from my place.
Generally, an historical phenomenon is naturalized thanks to an absence of memory (hence the political value of neutrality and forgetting). march madness Obviously not always for political reasons: it was once assumed that a nerve originating from the heart ended in one of the fingers of the left hand, which is why the wedding ring is worn there today.
http://www.enterbet.com
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